Discussion YMMV / MiraculousLadybug

Since you've asked about this before (and you're not the only one bringing it up on this page), I'd like to point out the description of Unintentionally Sympathetic to you: "When a character is Unintentionally Sympathetic, it means they get a lot more sympathy from the audience than the writers were expecting. But unlike Draco in Leather Pants, this isn't a case of audience members downplaying an antagonist's flaws because they think the character is sexy, cool, or funny. Rather, something about the narrative itself — the character's motivations, their actions, the others' response to said actions, the framing of the scenario, etc. — does the job for them." This isn't about how bitchy Chloé is, or people downplaying her flaws; this is about fans acknowledging that yes, she's still an awful person, but they don't feel like she's the Beyond Redemption monster that the writers are making her out to be due to other factors (in this case, her few Pet the Dog moments and her abusive mother). As such, there's not really any reason to delete the entry since it still fits.

Hard agree. This is the moment that solidified that Chloe was both a villain and Beyond Redemption.

Many people, myself included, think Season 3 is definitely the worst of the two. Season 4 might be far from perfect, but nowhere near as bad as Season 3. And the finale was pretty good.

Agreed. I saw a mass praise on the season 4 finale on Twitter and their wiki.

That's what I've been seeing too, and I mostly hang out on Reddit. Season 4 had a tighter plot, higher stakes, ended in character development for both heroes, and had a surprisingly downer of an ending; what's not to like?

Although, I have to say that even though Season 3 is considered the weakest one yet, it's not bad per se. It had several solid episodes, and although I agree with the points the example raises, I'm not sure whether it qualifies as Seasonal Rot.

There are more than enough people who liked Season 3 (including the finale). At worst it would be a case of Broken Base.

Should we add some espisode examples on Season 3? The literal first episode was the infamous Chamelon, and next came Animaestro, where Thomas Austric literally inserted himself into the show in a "complain about criticism" episode. Season 4 made Chloe worse (common rumor is Austric based his on former bully of his), introduced Zoe (Base Breaking character at best, Flat replacment scrappy at worst), the first half of the season finale being pointless, HM having to have his big victory handed to him, and making most of the season pointless.

Come to think of it, wasn't Seasons 3 and 4 the time when he took more control over the shows writing, and he started his crappy behavior on twitter? It defenitely wasn't as good as S1-2. Sorry for the long post

^ Though we do need to detail why S3 is considered Seasonal Rot (the current entry as-is is kind of barebones, imo), we also need to be careful about making a Wall of Text.

I'm also of the opinion that S3 was Seasonal Rot, not exactly Broken Base. From what I've observed, those who like it are very much a minority opinion. Iirc, Seasonal Rot doesn't necessarily mean that the season was abolutely, 100% awful, just that it was poorer quality.

If we're to list the reasons S3 tend to be consider the worst, I believe these are the most commented:

-The Love Square overstaying its welcome, which caused both Marinette and Adrien to act at their worst.

-Contentious episodes like Chameleon and Animaestro.

-Lila being written in a way that makes every other character grab both the Idiot Ball and the Jerkass Ball

-Chloe's redemption arc ending in failure, culminating with her allying with Hawk Moth.

That, and season 4 received higher praise.

If you want my opinion, 4 should go and 3 is up for debate.

^ Seconded.

People who like season 3 are hardly a minority, rather a majority.

https://miraculousladybug.fandom.com/f/p/4400000000000089122/r/4400000000000864785

These are the one on the wiki, so that's assured. But what about users on Reddit or Twitter? Do THEY have the same level of love for season 3?

I'll do you one better - do the ones on Reddit and Twitter have the same level of love for the entire damn show, while we're at it? I've seen way too much stuff that makes me go "Do you guys even LIKE the show you're watching?!".

But dude, they aren't under Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Sorry. My bad. I meant Unintentionally Sympathetic.

Yes Hawkmoth akumatized her family, but there's very few people in Paris who hasn't been akumatized once by this point in the show. And what real personal consequences actually came because of those Akumatizations? Yeah they were Akumatized for a bit but it's not as if Hawkmoth had taken them hostage or explicitly threatened their lives in any significant capacity, not like he did in Sentibubbler. Despite Ladybug's words, Hawkmoth never really used that information in a significant way that threatened their lives. So I don't see how it's reasonable to say that "she knew what she was doing" when what Hawkmoth did in Sentibubbler isn't really his usual MO.

In Miraculer Mayura was able to steal the Bee Miraculous. It was only possible because Chloé had exposed herself.

And in Heart Hunter Hawk Moth had akumatized her parents when he confronted her. At the latest at this point Chloé had to realize how serious the exposure of a hero is. But she did not care.

No, Shadow Moth did use the informations he got. We can see the consequences in Optigami and Sentibubbler. For example it is pure luck that he didn't spy on Alya at a time when she visited Marinette and the Kwamis. All the exposed heroes are in danger and claiming that Chloé is not to blame is just wrong.

Mayura was only able to do so because she specifically camped outside her house and was able to catch Cat Noir unawares, even then its not like she actually succeeded, she rather quickly lost it to Ladybug.

And while he did that in Heart Hunter, so what? Her parents have already been Akumatized before, it's not like this time was significantly worse than usual. And even so its not like her situation could speak for everyone, I mean her mother is a famous fashion designer and her father is the mayor of the very city Hawkmoth operates in, they're both known public figures who Hawkmoth would already know about. In contrast what exactly is the likelihood that the other heroes had families who would be just as notable as hers? Heck her mother was first Akumatized before she even knew what the Bee Miraculous was, so it's not like they would've been safe from such events without her in the equation.

And when did I say he didn't? Note that I specifically said this:

My point wasn't that he never used the information my point was that up to Miracle Queen, Hawkmoth never actually uses that information in a way that seriously put her family in danger, I.e. not using a Sentimonster to hold them hostage and threatening to send them into space.

My entire point is that she couldn't have reasonably known such events like Optigami and Sentibubbler would happen. We only know they did because we have the hindsight that comes from watching the newest season, but Chloé in-universe doesn't nor does she have the same information that we the audience do. So blaming her for future events as if she could've known about them doesn't make sense.

Mayura was only able to do so because Chloé did expose herself.

It was worse this time since he did specifically target them because he knew that their daughter was Queen Bee.

Yes, he did threaten the lives of the Césaire family. And yes, that was exactly what Ladybug warned Chloé of.

Chloé could have reasonably known that those things would happen. If not through commonsense, then though the clear warning.

Personally, I found Chloé Unintentionally Sympathetic at the Season 3 finale; yeah, she's an entitled bitch and wouldn't have earned a spot on the team if not for pure dumb luck, but she isn't wrong when she calls out Ladybug for kicking her off the team just because HM knows who she is (and season 4 really lends Chloé's rant some credit).

How about rewriting it to better incorporate the fact that the consequences of Chloé's betrayal didn't become apparent until halfway through season 4? Something like:

Nobody forced her to expose herself to the whole world.

Season 4 does NOT lend her credit.

The other heroes did NOT expose themselves willingly, they also did NOT work with Hawk Moth.

Now they and their families are in danger. Chloé made Optigami and Sentibbubbler possible in the first place.

Fair, Mayura could've never done thag if she did. But with the next point sure he did but to Chloé, who doesn't see the scenes we do of Hawkmoth plotting, he really Akumatizes them no less than any other citizen of Paris.

But with him threatening Alya's family, no that's objectively not what she warned her of. She said that he could use her secret identity against her, which is rather non-descript and vague, which is the opposite of clear. And how could Chloé reasonably knew it would happen? While Hawkmoth is a villain who consistently tried to get the Miraculous, he never actually... you know... murder someone. He literally never tried to do that explicitly at any point before Miracle Queen, at least not in her case.

To me the most Chloé could've expected as a potential consequence of her actions is that the other Miraculous Holders would get benched by Ladybug like she was.

Though to acknowledge you Round Robin, I don't really see why we should write the MEH entry as if information passed Miracle Queen was available at the time, since the characters in the actual series can't be expected to have that knowledge. We're talking about a specific moment in the show, any inclusion of events passed that would be natter.

In fact that was the very thing I want to ask 7353 about. Why do you feel the entry as it originally wasn't enough?

Why does this need anymore text? What does this not cover about the event itself?

In context she only exposed herself to prove to her emotionally abusive mother that she was special, which while I wouldn't say was a smart move by any means is somewhat understandable from a teenage girl who just wants her mother to acknowledge her.

But in regards to season 4 giving her credit I believe Round Robin is possibly referring to how in season 4 Ladybug continues to give Miraculous to Team Miraculous, even though Hawkmoth knows their identities, which was the thing that she consistently used to justify why she's benched. She even gives it to Kagami again and she probably exposed herself faster than Chloé. While no characters in-universe remark about it, it does unfortunately vindicates some of her frustrations since Ladybug is being a blatant hypocrite. Now while yes they didn't lose them intentionally, that doesn't change anything, they would be no less in danger by Ladybug's logic.

Ladybug: I know. But this is for your own safety. It's too dangerous for you and your loved ones because Hawk Moth knows that you're Queen Bee.

Too dangerous for you AND YOUR LOVED ONES. That warning is more than clear enough. And Hawk Moth proved her right by akumatizing Chloé's parents to use them. Chloé had still no problem exposing almost her whole team.

Hawk Moth NEVER had a problem with people getting killed. The Bubbler sending all adults into space, Befana turning people into coal, Timebreaker erasing people, Guitar Villain trying to kill XY and so on. Stoneheart threw Chloé from the Eiffel Tower. Kung Food even tried to make soup out of her.

I will not pretend that his actions in Sentibubbler were unforeseeable, especially if you were warned that this will happen.

And no, Kagami did not expose herself. Her exposure was simply inevitable since she was the only prisoner inside Ikari Gozen. When Ladybug told Kagami that she couldn't give her a Miraculous again she accepted it without any objections.

It also does not matter since Chloé does not know that Kagami has been exposed. If Ladybug had chosen Rena Rouge instead of Ryuko, Chloé would still have joined Hawk Moth.

You didn't answer the question of why the base MEH entry wasn't enough. Again, why is that alone not enough to cover the event?

And how is that warning actually clear? Saying "it's dangerous for you and loved ones" doesn't actually tell anyone how something is dangerous, it just says it is. That's more a claim than an actual convincing argument. And Hawkmoth Akumatizes everyone, even when he did summon them for Heroes Day, they weren't necessarily anymore a threat to her than any of the other villains surrounding them.

The Bubbler sent the adults in the sky but he didn't do anything else beyond that and even if he did due to Miraculous Ladybug, the power Ladybug uses at the end of a fight, everything an Akumatized Villain had done is ultimately undone. Meaning those battles had no consequences.

And those are entirely separate cases from Sentibubbler. In that episode there's no way to use Miraculous Ladybug since first she would have to catch the feather, which wouldn't be an option if he renounced Sentibubbler, which would cause his bubbles to stop existing, meaning if they hit the ground, that wouldn't be something she could fix. This isn't what he typically does.

And Kagami basically did, she literally wasted no time getting out of her prison and confronting her mother. I agree that it was inevitable, but it wasn't like she tried to hide it to begin with, she pretty much went Leroy Jenkins there.

I meant to reply to this when it was posted but the discussion page was glitching out. I agree with either removing or altering the Growing the Beard entry, or perhaps even adding a So Okay, It's Average entry.

Maybe even Seasonal Rot considering how much of a disappointment the Season Finale was and the show going out of it's way to avoid leaving it's status quo very far (the retconned in rule in Kwamibuster, Chloe's redemption arc being abandoned, and maybe even Cat Blanc depending on what happens in it, as we already know from the freeze frame that Bunnix is there, meaning it's a Bad Future plot)

iirc Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy was added when the Recap YMMV pages were cut for being too short, but then it was deleted off the main YMMV page because it only applies to the show as a whole. You can argue that S3 in general has kind of caused that reaction (especially with Timetagger confirming that the Square still isn't together AND the heroes never actually get to stop fighting the Butterfly), but I personally think Took a Level in Jerkass makes more sense for Chameleon in specific.

For the Love Square, Timetagger was actually deliberatly vague about that, so we can know for sure if they're together or not.