Discussion MediaNotes / MohsScaleOfViolenceHardness

I, for one, am opposed to a level 11 at the moment as that's really more of a music joke (from This Is Spinal Tap), hence why the Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness has that level. I suppose I could come around to supporting a level 11 for literature only, but I would have to be convinced. I'm not familiar at all with the "splatterpunk" genre, so I don't know how gruesome books can get. I am worried that adding a level 11 for literature will create a domino effect where it eventually gets added for other genres, with tropers adding films like Johnny Got His Gun and the third Guardians of the Galaxy movie to 11.

So, I guess, what would a description a level 11 violence in literature look like on the main page?

Your concern is very valid. Generally there are very few examples with pages and anything that would probably qualify in other mediums is out in the extreme fringes; such as ero-guro games and hentai. However due to the nature of books the most extreme examples can still be discussed and exchanged on mainstream platforms more freely than other things giving them more visibility. Hypothetically my description would be similar to the lyrical hardness 11; where the violence and depravity is so extreme that it defies practicality, have no levying factors or restraint, visual depiction would be nigh-impossible or illegal; thus solidifying Lit as a unique category. As for "splatterpunk"; more popular examples include "The Slob", "Playground", "Cows" or "Baby In a Blender". Its difficult to describe clearly but when noticed it's clearly discernable from even a very deserving 10. Something like Terrifier 2 would probably be an 11 if not for heavy black comedy elements. There definitely has to be an unapoligetically nastiness and refusal to show restraint in any way visual or tonal. As for videogames i think the most mainstream candidates would be Dead Island 2 and Dead Space remake and Final Response as they have transcendantly detailed gore systems that are still grounded enough to disturb as opposed to something more fantastical or tounge-in-cheek like say Killing Floor 2 or Doom Eternal.

Okay, my mind is open on the matter, but I think that I'd like to hear from some others before I fully throw my weight behind a proposal to add a level 11 for literature. Like I said, however, I'm opposed to it for media other than books.

Since, for example, stacking Level 8 acts on top of each other bumps the work up to a 9, should Level 11 be reserved for works that stack Level 10s on top of Level 10s?

As someone skeptical of adding level 11, I think it should take more than just "stacking" level 10 violence to reach such a level, if level 11 was ever implemented.

I don't know about that, as it would cause a lot of speculation over creator intentions and might cause works with relatively minimal, non-graphic violence to end up at level 10. Personally, I'm okay with the current rule of bumping up works slightly on the scale if there's notable bigoted/prejudiced violence that the creator is trying to make the audience sympathize with.

That's fine as long as it's unambiguously blatant.

I haven't read any of these books (based on the summaries given), so take what I say with a grain of salt.

1. This could be a level 1 if there's no actual written detail to the injuries.

2. Ditto.

3. This one could be a level 3 if the description of bleeding isn't graphic. If the book talks about blood gushing in intense detail, it should be somewhat higher.

However, it should be mentioned that I've never "officially" placed any books before (I generally stick to movies), so take what I say with a grain of salt, as I said earlier.

I don't think that there's ever been a true consensus of that issue. It may depend on things like how graphic or brutal the violence related to them is, whether animals are depicted as sentient in the work of media, whether the imagery is simulated or not, etc.

Until a true consensus comes along, I'd just go with your gut.

Like for example, depicting an bird/reptile embryo out of a egg with yolks, broken egg shell and even blood and stuff like that.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure where that would go exactly. It might depend on whether the imagery was simulated or not. If it was a "fake" prop, it could probably go as low as a level 4, but, if it was an actual embryo being shown, it could be as high as a level 7 or 8, depending on detail, brutality/"graphicness" of its presentation, duration of time onscreen, etc.

As I said earlier, I don't think that there's a true consensus on this, considering it doesn't show up often (that I know of). I'd say go with your gut.

Does anybody else want to weigh in?

Here's what I mean: Doom 2016 has a 10, which is the same level as Manhunt. Jo Jo has the same ranking as Berserk. While all of these works are very violent, I feel that Doom and Jo Jo have a far more whimsical approach to violence than Berserk or Manhunt does. Doom and Jojo are incredibly cartoonish, silly and exaggerated. Berserk and Manhunt are not at all.

I'm inclined to say "no," as the Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness going to 11 is a music joke (from the movie This Is Spinal Tap) and because technically there's 11 levels already if level 0 is counted. I've never played Doom' 2016 or Jojo'', but maybe they should be moved down a notch? Maybe?

That being said, others can voice their opinions on the matter, too. My mind is open.

Yes. A level 11 would be a great idea.

Berserk has practically THE SICKEST content you'll probably ever find in not only a manga, but any form of media, with everything horrible and every inhumane act you can probably imagine happening in unprecedented levels of exploitatively graphic detail, leaving absolutely nothing to the imagination and being only exponentially increased thanks to the virtuosity of Miura's art. This is all including but not limited to: obscenely high quantities of incredibly gratuitous and explicit rape; extraordinarily brutal, gruesomely gory and sickening fatalities; gratuitously brutal, lengthy and outrageously bloody sequences of extremely explicit, grisly and shockingly realistic graphic violence; all sorts of explicit lewd material and hardcore pornography; relentlessly excessive amounts of extremely detailed, extremely grotesque body horror, transcendentally gory and horrendously graphic butchery; extremely bloody and disturbing sequences of torture, murder and suicide; endless revolting imagery; incredibly nauseating and ridiculously ultra-realistically detailed gore; eyes constantly popping out and/or getting torn off in any moment; at least one victim flayed alive with the aftermath graphically shown; graphic depictions of bestiality, necrophilia and other hideous fetishes; violent satanic orgies; explicit hellish imagery; scarily realistic, gory brutality; ultra-bloody multi-dismemberment; gruesome mutilations shown up close, in full display, in grotesque detail, internal and external throughout; horrifically mutilated bodies throughout; extraordinarily hyperviolent action sequences; gory aftermaths of battles with extremely disturbing close-ups of absolutely horrendous war casualties; bloody and shocking injury detail; scenes of explicit and brutal animal cruelty and torture; scenes and images of self-harm; explicit and extreme sexual and sexualized violence; brutal scenes of sodomy; demons and monsters getting hideously brutalized by Guts; innocent and ludicrously fragile human victims either shown blowing up into fountains of blood, brains, bones and entrails, beaten to a pulp, epically curbstomped, hacked to bits, ripped to shreds, devoured alive by monsters, burned to a crisp, brutally violated, gorily impaled, and many other types of atrocious stuff; exceptionally violent and gory deaths; heads gorily and very graphically exploding with all the gore shown; some scenes of extremely graphic bloody and gory violence against children; extremely gory and disturbing Lovecraft-style eldritch horror; a photorealistic close-up showing Griffith's horribly mangled body in a brief flashback; exquisitely detailed shots of flayed bodies; and much, much more in what's essentially an almost endless parade of brutality that focuses in showing the worst aspects of mankind, demonkind and monsterkind alongside the unthinkably horrible consequences of them. Yeah. It's that kind of place, and it's all portrayed completely seriously. If the scale had an eleven, this series would definitely be there.

I'm inclined to say "no" at the moment, as there's technically eleven levels already (if you count level 0) and the Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness going to level 11 is a musical joke (from the film This Is Spinal Tap), so it doesn't really translate as well as it does for music. What would be on level 11 that wouldn't already be covered in level 10? Which works would have to be bumped up to an 11?

A Serbian Film: Look at the provided article, backing it up with You Tube searches for the infamous “newborn porn” scene and the fact that it was rated that high because of sadistic, sexualized gory violence and rape; including to very small children. 1000 Ways to Die: Look at the provided articles, backing them up with You Tube searches for each described death. There’s also Berserk with practically THE SICKEST content you'll probably ever find in not only a manga, but any form of media, with everything horrible and every inhumane act you can probably imagine happening in unprecedented levels of exploitatively graphic detail, leaving absolutely nothing to the imagination and being only exponentially increased thanks to the virtuosity of Miura's art. This is all including but not limited to: obscenely high quantities of incredibly gratuitous and explicit rape; extraordinarily brutal, gruesomely gory and sickening fatalities; gratuitously brutal, lengthy and outrageously bloody sequences of extremely explicit, grisly and shockingly realistic graphic violence; all sorts of explicit lewd material and hardcore pornography; relentlessly excessive amounts of extremely detailed, extremely grotesque body horror, transcendentally gory and horrendously graphic butchery; extremely bloody and disturbing sequences of torture, murder and suicide; endless revolting imagery; incredibly nauseating and ridiculously ultra-realistically detailed gore; eyes constantly popping out and/or getting torn off in any moment; at least one victim flayed alive with the aftermath graphically shown; graphic depictions of bestiality, necrophilia and other hideous fetishes; violent satanic orgies; explicit hellish imagery; scarily realistic, gory brutality; ultra-bloody multi-dismemberment; gruesome mutilations shown up close, in full display, in grotesque detail, internal and external throughout; horrifically mutilated bodies throughout; extraordinarily hyperviolent action sequences; gory aftermaths of battles with extremely disturbing close-ups of absolutely horrendous war casualties; bloody and shocking injury detail; scenes of explicit and brutal animal cruelty and torture; scenes and images of self-harm; explicit and extreme sexual and sexualized violence; brutal scenes of sodomy; demons and monsters getting hideously brutalized by Guts; innocent and ludicrously fragile human victims either shown blowing up into fountains of blood, brains, bones and entrails, beaten to a pulp, epically curbstomped, hacked to bits, ripped to shreds, devoured alive by monsters, burned to a crisp, brutally violated, gorily impaled, and many other types of atrocious stuff; exceptionally violent and gory deaths; heads gorily and very graphically exploding with all the gore shown; some scenes of extremely graphic bloody and gory violence against children; extremely gory and disturbing Lovecraft-style eldritch horror; a photorealistic close-up showing Griffith's horribly mangled body in a brief flashback; exquisitely detailed shots of flayed bodies; and much, much more in what's essentially an almost endless parade of brutality that focuses in showing the worst aspects of mankind, demonkind and monsterkind alongside the unthinkably horrible consequences of them. Yeah. It's that kind of place, and it's all portrayed completely seriously. If the scale had an eleven, this series would definitely be there.

No problem. While violence that gets an R rating from the MPAA can exist on levels as low as 6 or 7 (there, of course, isn't a quick correlation between MPAA rating and level on this scale...levels 6 through 7 can be a gray zone where the work either gets a PG-13 or an R, in regards to violence), I don't have a problem with onscreen rape being raised to at least a level 8, pretty firmly in "R-rated" territory. I wouldn't try to make too many correlations between MPAA rating and violence level on this scale, though, as the MPAA's standards have varied wildly throughout the years. Nonetheless, I'm okay with this change.

I think it should depend on how many episodes the show has, and how much of a deviation from the norm the highest level violence is. If a 10 episode show has once episode that is a level 10 on the violence, while the other nine are a 7, i think it would be fair to put it at level 10. But if a 100 episode show that is normally on level 7 has two episodes that are level 8, i think a level 7 is fine.

That's a good idea, do you have a "formula" in mind, or do you think that I should alter the rules for episodic media (like television shows) to say basically what you said, so that it's sort of up to Troper interpretation to determine when a show is too long to base on only one episode? I think that this is a swell compromise between the "average episode determines rating" status quo for TV shows and the "peak level of violence determines rating" rule that's used for non-episodic media. Does anybody else want to chime in on either this or splitting the Film page in two?

On the topic of odd revisions, someone seems to have gone on a rampage putting any movie with any semblance of animal cruelty on level 10 (including Marley and Me). Ive seen no discussions on this standard being agreed on so it was rather off putting. [Edit] This has since been revised and annotated to reflect previously established standards. Its also worth noting that there have been several non-discussed tweaks to the main article in the past. However hey were much less drastic and were largely made due to observations of patterns within listed movies.

Thank you for reverting the edits related to all animal-related violence or death getting an instant level 10. I understand that some people react differently to that sort of violence than that directly at humans, but that threw the scale out of whack. Animal-related violence and death is certainly a tricky issue, but I think the way the guidelines are laid down now are good. Once again, you have my thanks.

Yeah the edits were completely my doing. Consider it an early April Fools joke.

That being said, it does warrant discussion whether it deserves a 10 or not. I’ve met a lot of people who consider a dog being shot bloodlessly onscreen to be equal to or worse than seeing somebody getting painfully torn in half with all their organs spilling out.

Lol. I had a feeling someone putting "Marley and Me" on the same range as "Hostel" had to be busting some chops.

Well, that's why there's a discussion page.

Predator's rating can be changed if you want. It's mainly a 10 for the completely skinned corpses, something that I probably should've made a note for (Saving Private Ryan is very graphic, but it doesn't have gore on that level, in my opinion). Overall, it's a pretty subjective scale, but so are the other scales on this site (like Mohs Scale of Rock and Metal Hardness). I don't watch many horror movies, so the scale may be "off" a little, but, hopefully, the kinks can be worked out.

I was wondering if you could give more description for violence in general for these. Like you say a brief bloodless decapitation will be a 6.

I think that you could bump up the PG level a notch (I think you could get away with level 3 violence and a PG rating) but I'd probably side with that scale. I'd also maybe add level 9 to the NC-17 rating, since some films (like the uncut version of RoboCop) are Level 9 but NC-17 rated.

Thank you for your input. I replaced the old correlations with the new ones that I proposed, but I did bump up PG a notch to level 3 being the maximum a modern PG-rated can generally get away with. It is true that the unrated (presumably NC-17) cut of Robo Cop '87 is in level 9, but I'll leave NC-17 as generally correlating with only level 10 for the moment, until more, if any, NC-17 level 9s are found.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I put it at the top of my Netflix queue to view it for myself and give some input. I'll reply to this discussion page again once I've seen it.

Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the conclusion.

I just watched Hudson Hawk, and I think it might be best to place it in level 6. It comes close to level 7 at times, like when one character has his throat slashed. However, watching it closely, the actual act of flesh being torn in not shown, the film just shows the blade swinging near the character's throat, then cuts a shot of the guy falling over with blood painted onto his neck and chest. So, I'd say it rates a 6, but feel free to disagree.

That's perfect enough. I was thinking of placing it around there. Thank you for your help! And hope you enjoyed the film too.

Do you think it might help if the "Gorn" link is moved from the level 10 description to the level 9 description?

Anyway, maybe something like "Nightmarish depictions of bodily harm such as being reduced to pulp, skinned corpses, etc. show up on this level, as do realistic, prolonged, brutal sequences of genuinely gory mayhem." could be added to the level 10 description. To be honest, I don't watch many movies that would rate a level 10, so I'm not an expert on the subject.

I don't see why Western Animation and Anime can't be added. Feel free to do so. If Western Animation is added, though, I will have to transfer The Adventures of Tintin out of the Film section and into the new category. Not a big deal.