So, is there an example of Evil vs Oblivion where the Oblivion side is actually more heroic/better than the Evil one?
I made a (hopefully trope-correct) edit regarding Order of the Stick but moved this to discussion:
- When Durkon is turned into a vampire and thus goes from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil, he continues fighting alongside his mostly-good team. Regardless of his alignment, he has no desire to see the world end... or so he claims. Actually, he's following the orders of a goddess that does want to see the world end (on her own terms; it was technically true that Durkon doesn't want the Snarl unleashed, he wants the gods to destroy the world beforehand), which means that Evil vs. Oblivion turns out not to be Durkon vs. anything to do with the Snarl, but Belkar vs. Durkon — Belkar was the one member of the team that refused to trust Durkon.
So basically, the wiki is kind of talking to itself regarding the vampirized Durkon. The character initially seems to fit this trope, but was hiding his true nature and is actual plan is basically the Oblivion.
Additionally, I don't think Belkar is really an example of this trope. This I'm less sure about. Belkar is Evil, no question and also is actively working to save the world. However, Belkar is a member of a heroic adventuring party and is basically consistently doing good (until recently not by intent) or at least being pointed in the direction of the bad guys.
Like I think the trope is about a character who is by default evil/destructive but will join with heroes for the limit purpose of preventing the end of the world. And Belkar's involvement with heroics is a lot broader than that.
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I agree that Durkon shouldn't be listed as an example here. The entry needs six lines to justify it being there, when it's not even an example anyway.
Durkon is definitely (capital) Evil, but as it turns out he was never against stopping oblivion to begin with. The entry feels as if it was written in a very specific timeframe. One where the audience knows that Durkon is a vampire, knows that he is now evil as opposed to the 'I'm still a good guy act', but doesn't yet know what Hel's plans are.
Only readers right up to that specific point in the comic will get something from this entry, because then they can find out that Durkon wasn't actually an example of this trope. Meh.
I'm a little on the fence regarding Belkar. It's true that he's evil and he's fighting oblivion, but by that logic almost any Token Evil Teammate counts for this trope. This might be a case for Lost And Found, but I think the implication here is that even large-scale villains balk at the thought of the world ending, so they help out the heroes. Belkar is evil, but he's not large-scale Big Bad Villain-type Evil.
Thanks for the reply and very well put. I didn't look at the edit history, but yeah, I also get the sense that it was written at one point when things were less clear, and then presumably edited each time things were revealed.
And yes, that's my issue with Belkar- the trope is about Big Bad types and the idea is that this threat (the Oblivion) is something that's a threat to even them.
Belkar is against Oblivion as part of being an OOTS member, but as you note, he's just a mundane Token Evil Teammate.
Also, would you agree with my edit that Loki is an example of this trope?
I asked around on the forums, and the reply I got there suggests that Belkar should count after all.
Loki counts in my books as well. In fact, the same applies to all of the evil deities present who were voting against hitting the Reset Button. They're literally evil gods after all.
Thanks. Could you link me to that thread? Still not sure I agree with Belkar, but okay...
That is a good point with the other deities- I think he's the only one we can add an example of though because he's the only (apparently) evil deity that is against the Reset.
By which I mean we don't really know how the votes broke down in the Southern and Western pantheons, and with the Northern one, it looks like the rest of the clearly evil gods all voted Yes.
Edit- Found the thread. I'd wait to see if there's more responses because I don't think the standard Token Evil Teammate fits the trope either.
Edited by Hodor2
Durkula should be here... it's what's known as a subversion. He (and Rich) capitalized on this trope and set it up, only to go back and say "nope! Doesn't apply! Gotcha!"
I agree Belkar shouldn't count either because he's been fighting "evil" well before oblivion was at stake.
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I could see Durkula being added as an example- but one that made the subversion clear and didn't sound like it was talking to itself
Delspencerdeltorro
What's with the Tales of the Abyss example? That doesn't sound right at all. Van wanted to destroy the world and replace it with a replica. The player wants to save the current world. That certainly doesn't fit with the sides that the example gives. I'm not sure Tales of the Abyss even contains this trope.
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Name discussion:
, started by Stratadrake on Jan 9th 2011 at 7:56:04 PM
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