Discussion Characters / SoImASpiderSoWhat

I agree. There is enough material for Kumoko and Shiraori to justify a page dedicated to this individual, especially since she is the same person.

I also think there should be some other page separations, such as a page for humans and page for Demons.

I suggest handling it similarly to Dragon Ball - Android 21. Have the page dedicated to Kumoko, hide her second form behind a folder, and turn the page Spoilers Off.

I agree with with that as well. The Spider and Human like form should be in separated on the same page.

What should we make it as? Just Kumoko?

So Im A Spider So What Protagonist, since "Kumoko" is a fan-nickname, not an official name.

No, they shouldn't be merged into a single entry. It's a spoiler that they're the same person. The moment you list them together you drop massive spoilers about the second half of the story.

Edited by Arha

That's a secondary concern to the organization of the page. The two are the same person, even more so than the aforementioned Android 21 or, say, Hollow Ichigo. Both of the aforementioned pages warn the readers of untagged spoilers.

If anything, hiding it behind a folder on a character makes it LESS likely that readers will be spoiled.

They're not even acknowledged to be the same person for a large chunk of the story, though. And this would hardly be the only page on the wiki to give multiple entries for what is actually the same person.

As for splitting the page, I don't mind splitting the character page into something like demon/human/neutral sides, but you might get odd results based on how you do that. Like Sophia is not a demon, she's a human vampire. And do Hugo and Shun go on the same page? They're both from the human kingdoms but they aren't on the same side at all.

^ Neither are, again, Hollow Ichigo and Old Man Zangetsu. Yet, they are also listed under the same character entry.

A stub for Shiraori should be placed with whatever page we put the Demon Lord faction, with something that reads like:

---

---

This actually makes it so that we can keep her spoilers hidden from viewers who are just scrolling the page, and also avoid whiting-out damn near half of her examples.

Edited by NubianSatyress

@NubianSatyress Considering the anime calls her "Kumoko", I wouldn't say it's just a fan nickname anymore.

And the reason Hollow Ichigo and Old Man Zangetsu are listed under the same folder is because they're both Zangetsu — at least as far as Ichigo is concerned.

Edited by Arawn999

Did it? As an official name? In what context was it used?

And yes, they are both Zangetsu, and thus listed together, despite being separate personas. Kumoko and Shiraori are literally the exact same person.

She calls herself "Kumoko" a few times in the end theme of the anime's first season — which as the Crunchyroll video title reveals is called "Do Your Best! Kumoko-san's Theme" Also, at least the manga has her refer to a hypothetical Magical Girl persona as "Kumoko-chan".

Edited by Arawn999

Then I still say we call the page So Im A Spider So What Protagonist, split into one folder called "'Kumoko'" (complete with quotations) and the other 'Her Evolved Form' (no quotes). Based on that info, the name still only seems "semi-official".

Edited by NubianSatyress

So, like, apparently someone decided to just go ahead and split off the page the way they wanted to with no consensus?

Someone should send Paleb05 a message directing them to this conversation, then.

Edited by Arawn999

For the record, I didn't make the page. Someone else did.

Edited by NephiTheSpaceWarrior2500

I was planning on it if everyone agrees to it. Paleb05 was the one who started the page.

Edited by NephiTheSpaceWarrior2500

Ah, sorry. I suppose I should amend that, then — Paleb05 is the one who should be messaged.

Okay, Paleb05 here ready to explain why I made the page:

The only reason I made the page was because the information was removed with a red link and I was worried that the information would get lost and buried if the page wasn't made sooner than later. I had no knowledge that this conversation was happening so I apologize for any problems that I made for acting before anyone else did

Edited by Paleb05

For someone who wasn't following the conversation, you did a remarkable job of building the page, so kudos to that.

At this point, my only minor objection is that I still think the page should be called "Protagonist" instead of "Kumoko", but that's such a minor concern that I'm okay with as it stands now.

Agreed, though I suppose it can still be renamed. All that needs to be done is to create the "Protagonist" page, copy the content from the existing page, and change the outgoing links.

I still disagree with putting Shiraori on the page, but if you're going to do that then I see no point in giving them separate entries at all, nor in listing Shiro under the demons at all. The story leads you to believe they're two different people, but if we're not going to try to keep that going then we should give up on it entirely. After all, the redirect from Shiraori to Kumoko page is going to spoil the twist immediately anyway and since there are only two character pages it's not like you can pretend it's going to So Im A Cloud So What or whatever.

Edited by Arha

Should I go ahead and remake the page?

There's a lot of middle ground we can cover between "combine Kumoko and Shiraori" and "just give up".

Also, the argument of "the link is going to spoil the twist anyway" makes zero sense because even if Shiraori had her own complete section, that would be even more full of spoilers. The way it's organized right now, someone would literally need to scroll down to the very bottom of page to get a faceful of spoilers.

Yeah but the main character page points right there under the Shiraori entry. And the fact that a second entry exists at all means she becomes a different person. And that's assuming people don't just get really curious and open it for a second to see what's going on.

Honestly, combining the entries would probably be less spoilery than doing that. So yes, I think if they're on the same page there is no reason to have two entries.

If you want a third option, put all the reincarnated people on one page including Kumoko and then figure out if you want Shiraori on that page as well or back on the main page. If she goes to the reincarnator page, just straight up remove Shiraori from the demon character sublisting. If she doesn't, problem solved, don't need to do anything more. Of course, that opens up a new can of worms with where you want to put Sophia and Wrath, whose true identities are absolutely spoilers.

The link is covered by a spoiler tag, which is as good as a "stop reading now if you don't want to know" warning as we're going to get.

And like I said, splitting it like this is less likely to spoil than keeping the two separate. If, for whatever reason, someone missed or is just so dang curious that they can't take the hint, then what you're proposing would 100% spoil them even worse no matter what. We cannot spoil trope names or blank an entire example after all. If someone is that beyond help, then that's on them.

Putting all reincarnated people on the same page wouldn't solve the problem. Kumoko still has enough tropes on her own to warrant her own page. And it's highly likely that we're going to have to split Reincarnators and/or other groups into their own page as more tropes get added over time.

Spoiler tags are banned in descriptions, so you can't put them over the link like that. Even if you could, there are only two character pages. Where else is a link like that going to go? Narnia?

Also, what's wrong with putting all the reincarnated people on the same page? We aren't at the page limit here where we have to split it or the page breaks. We're doing it for ease of reading convenience and all the reincarnated people are main characters. Putting them all together makes sense from an organizational standpoint. I don't see any reason not do it that way. An entire page for a single character just seems weird to me unless there's a very good reason to do it that way like being Superman and having like a century of comics written about you.

Hell, there are even advantages to doing it this way. For example, if we aren't straight up telling people that Whitey and Spideretta are the same person, we can use their names for the folders and not spoil anything by doing so.

I think Reincarnaters, Gods and Natives is a good three way page split with very little overlap. The only problem is Sophia and Wrath and I think you probably just have to give up on that one. Doesn't even matter anyway.

Edited by Arha

First off: can we tone down on the snark?

The entire purpose of this discussion was the fact that Kumoko the character has enough tropes dedicated to themselves individually to justify them having one singular page. The Reincarnators being moved their own page as well is a mostly peripheral issue. An "entire page for a single character" is hardly weird, considering that we have an entire index of them. And the vast majority of them aren't 90-year-old superheroes.

Fine, fine.

It makes more sense to put all the reincarnators together, though. I think it's a neat split to just have three character pages split like that. I mean, you say she has enough tropes to give her her own page, but it's not like putting the reincarnators with her makes it amazingly longer or anything.

Is that an okay to go ahead with it then?

Absolutely not. I was giving a chance for anyone else who wanted to comment on it to speak up. But you certainly don't have consensus to act here.

Given the way the conversation was going before you re-opened it, a lack of response from others only brings us back to the original proposal, in which case, Nephi, Knowledgeseeker, Paleb, Arawn and myself have all agreed on the current split (although with a proposed rename for Kumoko's page), with you as the only dissenter.

Well, the current format is not okay by wiki standards, so your consensus isn't really enough by itself.

So now we're arguing that the format breaks wiki standards? Based on what?

Nothing major. Just that a spoiled out tag directing to the protagonist page (like Shiraori has) is putting a spoiler in the description, which is against the editing policy. It's not a huge deal, but it's still something we shouldn't be doing.

If that's all, then the spoiler tag can be removed so that it reads:

Edited by NubianSatyress

Okay, that's the bare minimum. Hurray for us.

That being said, I still think all the reincarnators should be on a single page and Shiraori not listed on this one at all. Splitting the page between reincarnators, natives and gods seems like the easiest and most easily understood split we could make. The main character page stays a disamb page pointing to those three. As it is now there are twenty eight Not Spidergirl characters on the page, which makes it very long and unwieldy.

Again: the snark is unnecessary. And in this case, it's nonsense: I flat out asked you what was "against policy", and that was the only thing you brought up. It's ridiculous to start talking about "bare minimum" since, when asked, you literally said "nothing major" and then listed only that one thing.

But anyway, now that we've come all the way back around to you disagreeing with the way the pages are split (which, again, is your lone opinion) I'm again going to bow out and let other people comment if they like.

Edited by NubianSatyress

That was not snark. If you want to read sarcasm and ridicule from everything I say, feel free, but be aware that you are not actually capturing my intentions.

Also, this is not my lone opinion. Literally the first reply is someone saying we might want to split the page more than just having a page for miss spider.

Edited by Arha

Yeah, and as has been stated before, that's not mutually exclusive to giving Kumoko her own page. As I said before, we will inevitably probably do both. However, we would also need to open a secondary dialogue to determine exactly how "Reincarnators" "Demons" and whatever need to be separated, since most of the main characters are both.

However, Shiaori not being listed on the page is (IMO) a mistake because it would just confuse people who don't know the twist more. At least this way, they know that there's a twist about the character, and they can come back and click the link after they know what it is.

Reincarnator and native are mutually exclusive. For Shiro to appear on the reincarnator page doesn't tell you that much. With no context, for example, seeing Wrath on the Re page only tells you he came from Earth, not that he's the deuteragonist's former bff. It's the same with Shiraori: You have no clue who she is on a page like Reincarnator. In fact, you don't even know that name until you know who she is, so you can't connect it to the person that killed Julius.

The only ones who could really appear on two pages with the way I suggested splitting it are Sariel and Gyurie and I'm pretty sure most people would look under gods when wanting to read about those two.

Oh, I guess Shiro would belong on that page too, but I think the same argument applies. Anyone who knows the name Shiraori is going to look first for Kumoko's entry, not see it and then see

[[folder:Shiraori (Beware spoilers!)]]

at the bottom of the page.

You literally see who the person that killed Julius is, and there's a picture of her in the folder named "Shiraori". That argument is just untrue.

And like I said, at this point, it's just you and I going back and forth. I would like others to weigh in.

Weren't you arguing before that people wouldn't open the clearly marked spoiler folders? Images can also be hidden inside notes so that they only appear when toggled. Also, knowing that some pure white character killed a dude doesn't even mean anything if you don't have the context to realize dat be a spider in disguise.

But yes, I would appreciate more input. I am currently assuming, however, that everyone else stopped paying attention.

What "marked spoiler folder"? The folder in the character page is named "Shiraori". That makes no sense.

What you said was: "you don't even know that name until you know who she is, so you can't connect it to the person that killed Julius" which is false. Anyone who has seen up to the point that Julius gets killed and then scrolls down the page and sees Shiraori is going to see the picture of the woman that killed Julius, along with a warning that she is a Walking Spoiler and to click on the link for more info at their own risk. Again, the argument is flat out invalid.

If, instead, you are arguing "people who see the folder but don't open it won't know who Shiraori is", then....good. That's exactly what we want. If they don't open the folder and don't know who Shiraori is, then that is the best case scenario for them not being spoiled.

As it stands, if no one else comments after us, then no further action can be taken on the page. It will literally stand as it is now, because that was the last thing we all agreed on, except for yourself.

Edited by NubianSatyress

Okay, it seems I didn't explain properly. The folder would be something like

so that you know it is a reincarnator thanks to the page she is one, but you ONLY know their name if you only see the folder. So you don't open it. The image for the character would be hidden like this

which means you have to click the image to see what she looks like even if you open the folder. Her description as I originally wrote it does not tell you who she is, or rather who she started the story as, though I don't know if it's been altered since. And finally, she, Wrath and Sophia (should we so decide) could even be under a subheading such as the demons are under now where we note that the characters are no longer going by their original names and thus they are mild to serious spoiler characters.

Also, I get that you are kind of worked up because you are just assuming I'm being incredibly sarcastic, but you are coming across as pretty hostile right now. I haven't said anything snarky in three days.

None of that is what the page looks like or what anyone has argued it should look like.

Also, I don't think what you perceive as "hostile" is relevant when you don't think "Okay, that's the bare minimum. Hurray for us" doesn't count as snark. And definitely keep presumptions about my mental state to yourself. So far you are the person keeping this conversation from moving forward to the point that you implied that not being replied to for one day would be implicit agreement.

Edited by NubianSatyress

Didn't I just argue that that's what it should look like? Just because it doesn't look that way now means it can't look that way.

Let's see, to put my opinion here for what it's worth, I think it's generally better to treat the characters as the work treats them, rather than what their origins are.

Shiro, Sophia, and Wrath are mostly portrayed as their new identities, so it makes more sense to me to list them there. Their original identities are more spoilery and less relevant to the story. Especially for Shiro, and Sophia's identity is part of that. Shiro is also primarily the protagonist, and since she has multiple variants it's not out of place to put her on her own page. There are enough tropes for that.

The characters who still identify as their original selves are usually treated as such, although you could argue that Shun is far more important as the Hero of that world.

All in all, I think the current structure works, with Shiro on her own page, and the other groups as they are, with or without splitting those folders onto their own pages.

I also wonder why Shiro is the only one with a different style image, especially since her spider image is lifted from the anime like everyone else, but that's a different discussion.

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Their original identities are still very important to them. Wrath calls himself that because he can't bear to associate the current him with who he was while Sophia is still a lonely, insecure child who hates herself deep down. Any by deep down I mean about ankle deep down. They're lying to themselves by pretending to be different people, but they aren't doing it very well.

Shiro's image is from the LN instead of the anime. I think it was picked out before the anime showed her in any capacity.

Edited by Arha

And to get there you have to analyse them. If you don't, or think about the story overall rather than getting bogged down in specific characters, they're oni boy and vampire girl.

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And this is one reason why having Kumoko and Shiraori under one page makes the most sense. Dividing the characters into "Reincarnators" uses an in-universe property to divide the characters. Kumoko and Shiro, however, are categorized as the protagonist, which is an out-of-universe property. Even if Kumoko died at some point and got replaced by a new protagonist, that wouldn't change her protag status for the original volumes.

You know what, go ahead and do it however you want.

I don't feel like there are any particular important characters missing. I can't see the likes of that labyrinth guide or that dorky swordsman putting the page past the character limit or anything.