I don't have a very strong opinion here but merging the armours except the Hulkbuster seems really reasonable, there really are only quite few separate tropes for the others.
Re Fatal Flaw entry.
I was reluctant to add Fatal Flaw to the list of examples for any of the MCU characters, although almost every character in the Star Wars franchise has it on their pages. It must be one defining character flaw and there is often disagreement on that. For Tony Stark, he is definitely careless at times (and Crazy-Prepared at other times), but I don't think this is that one defining flaw the trope is about. I'd rather say in his case it is being ridden with guilt.
Any opinions on that?
I believe the current entry
for Beyond the Impossible is Not An Example and should be removed completely. It was added by troper maxsuldor, I deleted it and provided a justification and he restored it again. I do not want to start an edit war, so let's discuss it here.
Laconic description of the trope states: "Breaking (what seemed to have been) the rules set by the story's internal logic." Playing with page states "Character or event breaks previously established physical rules". The Trope page says that it deals with "violation of Internal Consistency," "The action is literally impossible instead of being one step higher than the current best." and "Do not confuse with Rule of Cool nor badass". The Consistency trope page lists BeyondTheImpossible as an example of "the Lack of Internal Consistency". The Series Continuity Error page says "Compare BeyondTheImpossible, which is about characters breaking the story's internal logic by doing what is physically impossible."
I think that merely being an inventor does not match this description. Nor is anything similar found in the examples listed on the page Beyond the Impossible/Film.
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Pulled the contested example:
- Beyond the Impossible: Being the scientific genius he is, Tony has more instances of this than any other character:
- In Iron Man, he revolutionizes arc reactor technology and creates a groundbreaking prosthesis IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
- In Iron Man 2, he synthesizes a new element with an energy output seemingly equal to vibranium's.
- In Iron Man 3, he invents subdermal microchips that can summon the Iron Man armor from anywhere on the globe. He also finds the key to the Extremis formula, which allows for the regeneration of limbs.
- In Avengers: Age of Ultron, he converts the alien synaptic structure from Loki's staff into a computerized, sentient A.I. He also helps make Vision, a living, biosynthetic being capable of complex thought and emotion.
- In Captain America: Civil War, he designs holographic technology ("Binarily Augmented Retro-Framing") capable of syncing to a person's hippocampus and removing user-specified memories.
- In Avengers: Infinity War, he cracks polymorphic nanotechnology —that is, he figures out how to calibrate the nanites that compose his suit to perform dozens of functions and form dozens of structures almost instantaneously while still being able to be stored in his jacket and arc reactor.
- While it's only mentioned in Iron Man, his creation of J.A.R.V.I.S., DUM-E, and U as a child also qualifies; before Ultron and Vision, they were the world's first sentient, evolving A.I.'s, as well as the most sophisticated.note
- Tony also mentions unprecedented breakthroughs with genetically engineered "intelli-crops" and advancements in medical technology designed by him. Not to mention the fact that his weapons were the most advanced in the world before he stopped designing them, with Raza (the leader of the Ten Rings) claiming they were as revolutionary as the bow and arrow.
Frankly, this isn't an example. Each of these is incredibly impressive, none of them are Beyond the Impossible. BTI is about an accomplishment that breaks the work's internal logic, which doesn't apply for any of these.
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Yeah, there's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the trope is defined. What's being listed is simply examples of him doing impressive feats of science, nothing that breaks the internal logic. In fact, it's completly consistent with the setting's internal logic, being a sci-fi/comic book universe with access to advanced technology.
This examples is not Beyond the Impossible, it's Impossible Genius. Just move the entry under that.
So, troper Asherinka trimmed the entry for "Ambiguous Disorder" down, troper maxsuldor added some parts to it.
The whole entry looks like this now:
I think that the entry doesn't have to be that long, and especially the part about IW doesn't seem to be about an disorder, but more about a acute reaction to emotional trauma. Also the second part where Tony's eccentric behavior gets mentioned could be trimmed down a bit again.
Edited by Hjortron18 Hide / Show Replies
I would like to note that according to How to Write an Example, "Brevity Is Wit. No one wants to read Walls of Text. Overlong examples can encourage other tropers to carry on too long and can quickly turn a trope from a fun read to a long slog. Examples should have enough substance so that readers can get a relatively clear picture of how a given work used the trope in question, and no more. Don't bog the example down with unnecessary detail or canned analysis."
I believe the example should be cut in half.
The eccentricity parts are just extra. They aren't really any disorder and just his personality.
Anyway, I agree it's way too long. There's no need for every symptom example of a possible disorder to be listed.
I would also like to note that his Cloudcuckoolander entry is rather short. This is where the part about eccentric behavior belongs. It could be safely moved there without deleting much content and by simultaneously improving the page.
A lot of the eccentricities are just him being a flippant, snarky character in a comic book universe. I don't think it's anything deeper than that.
Yep. Getting giddy over his lab being destroyed is not a disorder. That's just who he is.
Edited by Snowy66
Wacky behavior should go under Cloudcuckoolander. Everything else should stay where it is.
Okay, first of all the whole secondary bullet is breaking the Example indentation rules.
Either it should go entirely, be waved into the first paragraph, or each entry into separate bullets.
Besides that, Ambiguous Disorder clearly point out the trope isn't about nailing the symptoms to an existing disorder — the point is that it is ambiguous. A lot of thing in the second paragraph are extraneous. It needs to be trimmed down.
And as other posters said above, the parts that belong to some other tropes shouldn't be repeated here.
I moved a portion of the text to the Cloudcuckoolander entry. Thank you all for participation in the discussion.
The addition of the new Armors section and its subsections resulted in a lot of duplicate entries. I think I merged or deleted them all by now, but I feel that creating so many subsections for individual suits is not needed, and only makes adding tropes harder.
Mark 1, 42 and 50 sections now have 4 tropes each, Mark 5 - 5 tropes. I would merge this small sections with Armors in General. Tropes for Mark 50 will likely need to be moved there anyway come A4 because his future suits in it will share the same features.
The only exception is the Hulkbuster. I would keep the separate section for it. It is very different from other suits and has many tropes associated specifically with it.
Edited by Asherinka Hide / Show Replies