Was Metroid Other M the right direction? (NO FLAME WARS PLEASE)

^^^Me.

"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel

"Alright, let's take a vote: Who else knew who the OP would be before opening up the thread?"

Because who else wanted to have a decent, civil discussion on the merits of the game, instead of just acting like the controversy doesn't exist?

Plus it seems some of you are going after me personally, rather than try to honestly discuss the game.

"I have my own opinions about games as a storytelling medium, but for now all I'll say about it for now is that the medium is still immature and that experimentation is very important at this stage."

I actually agree with that. Just that a) it's important to encourage improvement, not try to pretend it's already matured (although you might have already implied that and I missed it), and b) story experimentation is best with either new series or with series where the experimentation is established and therefore welcome (Final Fantasy). Trying it on one where the most story is on games that didn't sell that well is ill advised, to say the least.

"Personally, where I think Other M went wrong is using CG over the monologues. The monologues should've been voiced text with minimal graphics in the background to give context. Save the CG for the parts that need it, namely action sequences."

That seems to stem from the push to be just like movies, so the belief is that text=bad. Yet I personally agree with you. We don't need to have every word spoken, since I don't think gamers are illiterate or need to be wowed with voice acting.

"As for a direction for the Metroid series to go, I want to see Sakamoto push the boundaries of the series. See where the series can go. I want to see a Metroid game without Samus as the main character, I want to see a Metroid game without all of the same powerups we've had for however many games. I want to see how far away Metroid can be from Metroid while still being Metroid. That's what I'm looking for."

But the next game shouldn't do that. It should solidify the game for the audience again, and try to keep any experimentation minimal. This way it would assure the fans it's the game they love, but still trying some new things to keep it from getting stale.

Such as, I agree that new power ups would be good, as long as the power up system is still familiar. So it would be using the formula but in new ways, not trying another formula and just claiming it's still Metroid.

I also found that parts of Prime 3 didn't feel like Metroid, like the escort mission (which was actually pretty easy for one, but didn't belong in a Metroid game).

Heck, I've even joked about Samus running around fighting aliens, while wearing a poofy Pimped-Out Dress. But if she still moved and acted like the Samus we knew, it would still work.

Or playing someone other than Samus, as you stated, could also work, as long as the control was generally the same. The 3D Sonic games showed that simply trying different characters doesn't feel like a Sonic game if the character doesn't move like Sonic. So control or gameplay shouldn't set this character apart, but the little things, like a different atypical means of moment than the morph ball. This character would just crawl into small tunnels, but do something like being able to phase through windows. So any window before this point suddenly becomes like a door, even doors with windows in them, but were locked.

edited 26th Sep '10 9:17:28 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

From what I've been reading over the Internet, what the fans want comprises of Super Metroid over and over again. I think we've gone through that enough and don't see much point in trying again. That won't sell well in today's video gaming environment, it's going to reach diminishing returns. The Metroid series needs to take risks and keep things fresh or it's going to go to the same place as the handheld Mega Man and Castlevania games. Metroid can do better.

I think many aspects of the series has gotten stale. I'm rather tired of getting the same upgrades over and over again. I think the Prime games actually did a bit better on that, and Fusion and Metroid Other M streamlined them well, but it often feels like I'm just playing little variations on the same game over and over.

That said, it's hardly Nintendo's only franchise that has that problem.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.

I daresay the reaction to deviations like Other M also suggests that people rarely like it when things DO change.

Overall, I'd say it's the quintessential difficulty with a Longrunner - how do you keep it fresh without alienating the people keeping it alive? In video games, that usually means maintaining certain characters, mechanics, or settings, or all of the above. On the other hand, killing a long runner in favor of creating a new game has its own pitfalls, namely that despite how much people say they don't want sequels, sequels sell. A lot. Metroid Other M has already trashed a number of fresh, innovative new IPs on the Wii - and even a lot of them on the HD Twins as well. Plus, people get very upset when a Longrunner seems to be cut off in its prime - you know, like Metroid.

edited 26th Sep '10 10:23:04 PM by Rebochan

Not to get into another silly argument with you, but I think the case with Metroid: Other M is one of those where the changes in question wasn't really handled well.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

Fans don't like it when game is same over and over again, yet they aren't happy if they change things.

Thats one of reasons I'm on "Don't listen fans" side.

^^ Yes, that was it exactly. I was very much looking forward to the different approach, it was just poorly done.

Also, my apology for keeping this going.

edited 26th Sep '10 10:39:38 PM by Pykrete

^^ Different people like different aspects of a given thing?

edited 26th Sep '10 10:40:43 PM by Komodin

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

"From what I've been reading over the Internet, what the fans want comprises of Super Metroid over and over again. I think we've gone through that enough and don't see much point in trying again. That won't sell well in today's video gaming environment, it's going to reach diminishing returns. The Metroid series needs to take risks and keep things fresh or it's going to go to the same place as the handheld Mega Man and Castlevania games. Metroid can do better.

I think many aspects of the series has gotten stale. I'm rather tired of getting the same upgrades over and over again. I think the Prime games actually did a bit better on that, and Fusion and Metroid Other M streamlined them well, but it often feels like I'm just playing little variations on the same game over and over."

Actually I agree with that. Just as others have mentioned, this was not the way to do it. Some of your suggestions that you made earlier would actually be a lot better, as long as they were done right, or as you wrote, still feel like Metroid.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

I think Other M feels plenty like Metroid and I think most of the changes were fantastic. If anything, I think there wasn't enough changes with the game mechanics.

The cutscenes weren't done as well as they could've, but the only real complaint is that I've had enough of games with this style. I want something new from Metroid now.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.

And see, all I thought with the combat was "Hey, the game wants me to spam sensemove + instant charge." Especially since nearly all other avenues of combat would either punish you or take forever. It was pretty bland.

I also felt random trash monsters took way too long to kill and ended up running past half of them. It didn't make the game harder to stick around and polish them off, it just took longer.

And happy picture

edited 26th Sep '10 11:01:13 PM by Pykrete

Your apology picture would have been even more awesome if they'd shown the offspring was Master Chief.

At least that explains why this was so awkward then.

Inb4 Haloid

Find me a good picture of a Metroid/Sonic crossover, and maybe I'll forgive you.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

Damn, I can't find anything that's not generic Brawl cast fanart

At least she's associated with Pikachu closely enough to narrow it down to them a bit more.

I found some Metroid fanart by Nicochi, does that count?

edited 27th Sep '10 12:02:32 AM by SpellBlade

^ NO, IT FUCKING DOESN'T.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

"I think Other M feels plenty like Metroid and I think most of the changes were fantastic. If anything, I think there wasn't enough changes with the game mechanics."

First of all, thank you for discussing this. That was what I hoped to do with this thread.

Yet I do not agree that gameplay is the way to make changes. To start, I'll use Super Mario Bros versus Super Mario Bros 3 to show why. Essentially, the gameplay is identical, for the most part. The biggest changes are the power ups and how they have their own quirks. But otherwise, the basics of the gameplay were the same.

But where the game blew away being stale, unlike Super Mario Bros The Lost Levels, was that it felt like you were playing in an entirely new world, even though it was also the Mushroom Kingdom. Everything was different. The worlds were different. Even the levels in the worlds had loads of variety.

Or take Super Mario Bros 2, the Dolled-Up Installment. The source game Doki Doki Panic was chosen because the gameplay was very close to the Mario games, and thus could still feel like a Mario game.

Then we get to First Person Shooters. Call Of Duty did not change the gameplay, as the genre seemed to be doing fine with that. The change was the setting. Even though Modern Warfare was not the first FPS to move to modern day (the Battlefield series was one), it had the timing to do it when gamers were truly sick of World War II in games, and really wanted something fresh. Thus without having to change any of the way the game is played, the series still shot up to a first tier franchise largely from that, along with some multiplayer tweaks that made that more exciting.

So I say the gameplay is good, but feeling like another station or multi-environment planet is not the way to go. Same with the same power ups, which I do agree with you about.

Actually, the power ups are another argument about keeping the gameplay the same. We'd still know how to use power ups in the basic sense. It's just how they are used that would keep it fresh. That's why the Raccoon Tail in Mario 3 was such a big difference between that and the fire flower, in that both just used the B button, but in radically different ways. But the Cape in Super Mario World felt like just another Raccoon Tail.

For Metroid, what about a Laser Blade as a power up? Now this is the unimaginative, derivative way it would be used in a Metroid game:

• Certain enemies are invincible unless this weapon is used on them, and the fight against one boss requires you slash at its tail.
• One area is blocked off by some grating, and now that you have this sword, you can cut through the grating.
• Silver doors can only be opened by the laser sword.
• Some power up puzzles can be solved by slicing away grating or other obstructions.

Now let's look at ways to mix this up:

• It can actually hack off parts of monsters, even bosses. But it won't always be beneficial. Some monsters would be more dangerous with that part hacked off, but actually less dangerous if a different part is hacked off. But just to keep players on their toes, even a harmful hacking can be beneficial in the right situation.
  • Hacking off the Triceradragon's horn causes it to go berserk and lunge at Samus repeatedly. But if you do it in a certain pit, it can knock down a wall that even a bomb couldn't take out. Or there would be an even more dangerous foe in that pit that the Triceradragon can take out for you.
• Not just grating, but you'd see things on the wall that look like decoration, something like thick strips of metal behind a bunch of smaller strips perpendicular to the larger one. But cut it with the laser sword, and you see those smaller strips were actually holding a platform against the wall. And other things can be cut with the sword, making you want to hack at everything to find all the secrets (and then post them on {{Game FAQs}} for those who can't find them all).
• Those silver doors can be opened by a regular blaster. But hack at them with the laser sword, and they are completely destroyed. For the rest of the game, the door is gone. And different rooms will have different effects. Ether nothing happens, something good happens, or something bad. So you want to be careful about hacking a door. If it's filled with poison gas on the other side, getting rid of the door means you can't enter the safe room, until you get the right suit. Or maybe there is no safe suit, and you just have to take damage going through.
• Puzzles can be more imaginative. Let's say a machine is moving a platform too fast. Cutting the power cords with the laser sword solves that. But what about a later situation where you need it to move again? That's what the electro beam is for.

So with a little imagination, you can make a whole new power up that shakes up the game. But it would take some work to make it truly affect the game in a memorable manner.

edited 27th Sep '10 12:07:31 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Ooh, we could draw Other M / Nicochi fanart! It'd be like some kind of horrible marriage of Broken Bases.

"My nerdrage was a twofold response..."

EDIT: Well, here's Sonic x Metroid, but they're all pretty abysmal.

edited 27th Sep '10 2:00:53 AM by Pykrete

Okay, you can make a thread about posting your favorite game fanart.

Seriously, it would be a cool thread.

But too much would look like thread derailment.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

To be honest, I was hesitant. I don't believe our previous conversations has gone... well, which is why I dropped out, but it seems that things are going a bit better here. Hopefully, we can continue to discuss the matter without devolving into what happened earlier.

So let me start now by saying that I disagree heavily.

Super Mario Bros 3 was a drastic change from the original game(that is to say, Super Mario Bros, as opposed to Mario Bros, although that's also a change). Super Mario Bros 3 added the world map, levels that scroll vertically, actual multiplayer, powerups that can be stored and everything associated with it like toad houses, non-linear powerups, and non-linear levels. Mario is successful because it keeps on changing. If they tried to keep with the same formula all the time, then it'll end up like Mega Man.

Also, Call Of Duty 4 didn't just have some multiplayer tweaks, that game changed how people played online multiplayer games period and it's not because the multiplayer is more of the same. The online experience system was revolutionary.

In any case, this thread is about Metroid, right? I really think the problem is Samus herself. You have your morph ball, bombs, ice beam, plasma beam, wave beam, missiles, super missiles, power bombs, screw attack, varia suit, gravity suit... These are things that people associate with Samus. At the end of most Metroid games, she has all of this. She's almost stupidly powerful with all that, so each game has her powering down, and then, since they are her iconic powerups, goes gets them again. This leaves very little room for other, new powerups, so we are typically only left with a handful, if that, of new stuff.

An easy solution to this is to use a new character. Metroid Fusion can actually set this up quite well; could be a new bounty hunter hunting Samus herself. Of course, having a new character that plays like the old one kinda gets rid of the point, so the new character should be different. Maybe the new character can rely more on close-ranged attacks or something. The general ideas behind Metroid can stay the same, but I think the series can do some re-imagining.

These are just some ideas though, just like yours. I don't think a Laser Blade weapon for same is too great of an idea, Samus will just have too many different weapons at that point, unless it replaces a previous one. Things should be kept as simple as possible(but no less), in my opinion.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.

"Super Mario Bros 3 was a drastic change from the original game(that is to say, Super Mario Bros, as opposed to Mario Bros, although that's also a change). Super Mario Bros 3 added the world map, levels that scroll vertically, actual multiplayer, powerups that can be stored and everything associated with it like toad houses, non-linear powerups, and non-linear levels."

Let me correct that. I meant the control was the same. But the level design and power ups made the control work in ways not seen in the first game.

"Also, Call Of Duty 4 didn't just have some multiplayer tweaks, that game changed how people played online multiplayer games period and it's not because the multiplayer is more of the same. The online experience system was revolutionary."

I wrote that too fast. I wasn't familiar with how much had been added online. I did not meant to imply that the changes were minor.

But my point for both still stands, just specifically about the controls.

"Samus will just have too many different weapons at that point, unless it replaces a previous one."

I actually meant that.

For one thing, this could replace bombs. Sure that would be a drastic change, but as you stated, that would be a needed change to keep things from being stale. So while it has sort of the same function, that of a close range weapon that can destroy parts of the environment, the use is very different, such as not needing to be a morph ball, and it destroys things in a different manner than bombs.

edited 27th Sep '10 1:05:08 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Technically, couldn't they do Metroid game with all power ups since from beginning? And just do harder enemies and have all map instantly researchable with only thing needed is to defeat some bosses to get to final boss?

To be honest, with all this talk about the need for new power-ups and everything, I never really had a problem with the classic Metroidvania gameplay and power-ups. Story and setting are what make the game for me, not whether Samus uses Super Missiles or Scatter Missiles this time around. The exploration factor of Super Metroid and the Prime series was plenty interesting enough.

It DOES get a bit more tedious in games like Fusion or Other M, specifically because the exploration is much weaker; instead of traversing a fun and atmospheric environment and occasionally coming upon a new power-up, you're just being told to go from Point A to Point B to get the next power-up. It's like following a walkthrough, much of the experience is lost. It's the difference between, "Oh, Super Missiles. Again. Now where do I need to go to get Power Bombs?" vs. "Hey, I found the Super Missiles, now I can open those five doors I passed back there. Let's see what else I can find!"

That is exactly how I felt in Other M. Every time you get to a checkpoint, the map fills in with the next hallways you need to go down. Every time you reach a plot point, Adam chimes in and says, "Okay, now go over there and do that next." It's like playing a game with Game FA Qs open, there's no element of exploration at all when you have someone standing there telling you, "No, don't go through that door, you can't do anything there yet. Go that way. THAT way. Good. Okay, now go THAT way."

I really don't think the specific power-ups are the problem, because at the end of the day, they're really all just different colored keys; an item you obtain in order to gain access to new places. It's how the system itself is presented that makes it work or not work.

edited 27th Sep '10 6:30:04 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.