Inception

Can't really answer. My head is just making sweet, sweet love to the wall.

edited 28th Jan '11 10:37:37 PM by juancarlos11

You should have paid more attention to the exposition—at least half of those were answered explicitly in the movie.

Ok cool so that means you can explain it to me then. Like I said I'd proabbly come up with more things.

You know what? I will! Gimme a moment while I edit this post...

• Because Cobb is the one who has REALLY serious issues, none of the others get a backstory. Besides it's treated as a very rare phenomenon.

• YOU CANNOT PERFORM AN EXTRACTION OR INCEPTION IF THE OBJECTIVE KNOWS HE'S IN A DREAM! And the more you do stuff that is unrealistic, it's more probable because of how unrealistic is a dude on fucking jet pack.

• He knows all about extraction sure. But remember that an Inception causes the idea to define the objective. Fischer has no choice but accept the idea. and let it define him and obsess over it.

• It's a very specific point that this defenses and prjoections are subconcious. You don't control them. If Fischer did control them, then he would've known he was in a dream immediately. And they aren't animals or anything imaginary because the target doesn't know he's ina adream, so he can only stay on the grounds of reality...kinda.

• The inception tech connects to the nerves on the arm. Why? To avoid Brain damage. OK, this may not my most plausible theory but I do like it.

• Cobb is still THE most talented extractor in the business, he has performed an inception before, and he is the one who comes up (and performs) the Mr Charles gambit. He's definetly essential for the group to perfor their mission.

• It was an audition. They did try to screw him over, but he needed them more. They did not try to screw him over, he was the one who asked for an extraction (it was all a test to see if they could perform the task). Also if you believe the top falls then it becomes a long term gambit.

• No. It can be called a Hand Wave I'll give you that. But Saito pretected him from Bounty Hunters after he finally accepted the job, while he made sure he got to America.

• I don't really understand that one.

• He was an actor and a Conman. He's supposed to bes skilled in the art of acting he can convince a human that he's another one due to the movie basing itself in the idea of Jungian Archetypes.

So yeah, when I say you've got the movie wrong and didn't pay attention, I don't do it out of some "LAWL you're not intelligent" perspective, I'm saying it from a "They did state all of this in the movie"

edited 28th Jan '11 11:13:21 PM by juancarlos11

Dark City is hella cool. I don't think the visuals hold up, though. Sorry Proyas

I'll defer to you, then.

edited 28th Jan '11 10:58:08 PM by Ironeye

Nah somebody give some damn explanations because I feel pretty gyped and not very entertained.

Dammit I was more entertained by freakin Sky High then this confusing mess.

And i wasn't that original and we all know that because it's been compared to Matrix and Dark City all the time.

Why is Cobb's subconcious the only one that dangerously manifests itself?

Cobb was the only one who actively questioned his reality. This is a big plot point.

Why can't they all be more imaginitive and imagine jetpacks and other techno stuff.

For one thing, how would that help? For another, for the whole "Mr. Charles" Batman Gambit to work, they had to sell the idea that all of them were manifestations of Fischer's subconscious—which would be hard to do dreaming all kinds of techno crap.

Why would Cillian Murphy's character trust a dream to give him an idea seeing as dreams are easily forgotten and he knows all about extraction and stuff

Fischer had no idea they were trying to give him anything. And the entire point of the Mr. Charles gambit is that everything Fischer has trained for and learned about extraction would be used against him. Cobb continuously tells him to "remember your training" over and over to get Fischer to think the way he wants.

Why are the mental defenses just people and where the heck are the animals. If I was putting up mental defences I wouldn't stop at people.

The PASIV machine works by allowing architects to construct a dream world that works under somewhat rigorous physics. Cobb says at one point, "we create the dream and the subject's mind populates it". In this case, the population is people. That's what the PASIV does—it creates a world and forces your mind to fill it with what they want. The best you can do is turn the population against it.

How the heck does the inception tech work when it's just like one little tube and not even linked to the cerebrum.

There's no way this could be satisfactorily answered. The more you try to explain this Phlebotinum, the more you risk You Fail X Forever. They did a better job just explaining what it does instead of how it does it.

Why was Cobb's character that neccessary when people knew he could jeporadise the mission.

For one, no one but Ariadne knew. Arthur had his suspicions, but even he didn't know how bad it was. Second, Cobb is the only person who'd done an Inception before. Third, Cobb was the only one who needed this job to succeed. Fourth, Cobb is the most skilled extractor—he constantly had to alter the plan as more and more things went wrong.

Why did the Japanese energy guy not have them all killed later seeing as they tried to screw him over and I doubt Japanese business men are the forgiving kind.

You mean Saito? Yeah, this is actually stated extremely early in the movie. The extraction attempt was set up by him as an audition. He had no reason to be angry because they did exactly what he set them up to do.

Hasn't Cobb still got people after his head?

No. Saito said he knew how to take care of it, provided the job succeeded.

Why did they have to create three seperate layers to dreams and instead pull a Star Trek enterprise and have different segnment thinly veiled in the one dream layer.

Never seen Enterprise, so I don't know what that means. However, it's clearly stated several times that each dream layer takes you deeper into the subconscious, and that Inception only works if you go deep enough.

Why could Tom Hardy's character morph into different people and fool Cilian Murphy's character and even his own team but not Cillian's defences.

Okay, think of this way. Yawning is "contagious". When one person yawns, it sends signals that causes another person to want to yawn as well. However, if you consciously attempt to fake these signals, it won't work on the subconscious level. No one knows why.

Bring on your next questions.

edited 28th Jan '11 11:37:40 PM by KingZeal

AHRGH, stupid King Zeal and his awesomeness!

Reading his post, I think both explanations are complementary.

Unless you diasgree, KZ.

edited 28th Jan '11 11:16:01 PM by juancarlos11

S'cool. It's nice to have backup.

Ok so Cobb was the only one to question his reality? But he always knew what was real and what was not. He knew his wife was dead and that the train and other stuff weren't. I thought it was more the fact that he couldn't control his guilt and emotions. So why the hell when stuff was getting intense the other guys never manifested stuff up.

Ok now that's stupid that they can't manifest their own shit. If I manifested stuff with something unique to me much like a totem then you'd know I'm the real deal.

Fischer had no idea they were trying to give him anything. And the entire point of the Mr. Charles gambit is that everything Fischer has trained for and learned about extraction would be used against him. Cobb continuously tells him to "remember your training" over and over to get Fischer to think the way he wants.

Yes but I think the crux of Fischer's training was probably observation and suspicion. If you suspect people are manipulating or leading you into a direction that you do not follow. Cillian's character just bought that Cobb was their to protect him and he was a little suspicious of him. But also when he wakes up wouldn't he get suspicious of his God-father, investigate him and find that no such attempt was made. Or this whole business about a vault with these documents of breaking up the comapny. I mean every idea comes with a story and for Cillain's characher to forget the whole dream and not chase up sound kinda silly. And the other thing would be obvious that wouldn't he realise that the move makes him weaker and his rivals stronger and thus somebody stands to gain from this?

Yes but that doesn' explain why Cillian doesn't have flies and dogs etc attacking any and all intruders as part of his mental deffences.

So the machine cannot be explained and still looks kinda stupid ok.

Ok Adriadne shoulda told somebody and how is it that a newbie clocked on so quickly and the others not so much? Arthur had more than just suspicions I'd imagine. You say he altererd the plan loads but others did a lot of work. Including Ellen Page with her quick thinking. Truth is that Cobb did make the mission more complicated and threatened it. Ok he preformed inception before but it was Adriadne who was the architect and the one who constrcuted whe world and it's scenarios so in effect she planted this idea as well as Tom Hardys charachter through his illusion ability.

Ok it was an audition but that previous architect, I thought he grassed him up? what happened to him?

Alright so S Aito takes care of these people after his head. What by paying them off or something. They coulda explained that in more detail I think.

Ok so they needed to go deeper and deeper into the layers and yet they coulda done that and created thinly veiled walls to hide stuff within the layers such as safe houses and stuff. But I was thinking couldn't they add another layer by breaking up a layer into different segments and thus they might be able to go deeper with the same level of layers. As it seems layers are basicly just sets like you'd have in a massive stage play.

Ok but Tom Hardy is a good actor so couldn't he fool the subconcious? I mean what if someone could create the conditions for a genuine yawn or induce one? But I think yawning is still different from this though. I remember that guy with brown hair though kissing Ellen Page might draw away attention so it seems acting differently might've helped so Tom's ability coulda worked. Then again that guy mighta just been trying it on with Ellen Paige.

Also if this movie is all psychologcal then shouldn't one of them be like fully trained psychologist? I mean we understand how to make subliminal messages and it is descirbed in the helicopter of how they try to plant an idea but without the subject knowing but stilla fully trained psychologist coulda helped.

Now that brown haired guy had gins and stuff but no knivews and short ranged weapons?

Ok the subject has to populatte the place with their own character and all but Cobb was able to manifest his wife so why couldn't the guys just manifest buddies to help em out? I know Cobb was kinda unstable but they could manifesdt stuff like guns through will so why not people to help em out thwn things got hot?

When Cillian Murphy's character got taken to that Arctic place, did he bother to check for any of his own belongings that shoulda been with him? Like his wallet? Youn know not quite a totem but something kinda like the opposite.

If Ellen Paige is the Architecht then why can't she imagaine some defense that could help them out? Like some automated defenses like robots or drones?

Wouldn't Cillian Murphy's defense trainer give him an annoying alarm clock that should ring every half hour or something? That way he'd only sleep on his own bed and not in random locations where he would be too vulnerable. Okay now mobile phoones get switched off but electronic wathces? The more timekeeping devices the better.

If Cillian Murphy knew he was in a dream already the shouldn't he have known that the only ones who carry that inception tech are the ones trying to break into your mind in the first place?

Though Cillian Murphy is breaking into his God-Father's mind through inception then shouldn't he be suspicious that he doesn't encounter him there?

Why couldn't Yusuf drive a better armoured SUV for the pickup and that way they could avoid getting shot.

I'm sure of got many others but yeah.

edited 29th Jan '11 12:05:47 AM by shinfernape

Dude, you're not understanding. When you perform an Inception it obsesses you. You become defined by the idea. The moment Fischer wakes he won't care for who made him dream that, all he cares about is that he needs to make a new life for himself now.

^ No he will care as like any rational human being he would consider the pros cons and how feasible it is.

This isn't some Martin Luthor King stuff. Ideas and serious ideas take some real time and deliberation. A random idea is for most people a distraction fro everyday lives. I could concieve an oil drill powered by tidal waves and yet how far in reality do you think most people will get with that?

For modern ideas you need concensus and to work with other people. Fishcer would probably need some confident or to discuss this idea properly.

Ok so Cobb was the only one to question his reality? But he always knew what was real and what was not. He knew his wife was dead and that the train and other stuff weren't. I thought it was more the fact that he couldn't control his guilt and emotions. So why the hell when stuff was getting intense the other guys never manifested stuff up.

No he didn't. He kept spinning that top because he was actively attempting to change his memory of what happened (in fact, trying to Incept himself). He was convincing himself that Mal was still alive to ease his own guilt, which shows during the scene where he fails to snipe her. When Ariadne tells him that Mal isn't real, he doesn't believe her until she shoots Fischer. When they later meet Mal in Limbo, she flat out tells him that he doesn't believe in one reality anymore.

Ok now that's stupid that they can't manifest their own shit. If I manifested stuff with something unique to me much like a totem then you'd know I'm the real deal.

That's not how it works in the slightest. The totems aren't to let others know you're real, it's to let you know that you're not in someone else's dream. Second, the goal wasn't to convince anyone that they were real—in fact, it was the exact opposite. The Mr. Charles gambit required Fischer to believe they weren't real.

Yes but I think the crux of Fischer's training was probably observation and suspicion. If you suspect people are manipulating or leading you into a direction that you do not follow. Cillian's character just bought that Cobb was their to protect him and he was a little suspicious of him. But also when he wakes up wouldn't he get suspicious of his God-father, investigate him and find that no such attempt was made. Or this whole business about a vault with these documents of breaking up the comapny. I mean every idea comes with a story and for Cillain's characher to forget the whole dream and not chase up sound kinda silly. And the other thing would be obvious that wouldn't he realise that the move makes him weaker and his rivals stronger and thus somebody stands to gain from this?

Lots of points here, so I think bullets are needed:

• Even people trained to know when they're dreaming aren't immune to knowing when they're dreaming. Saito is the perfect example. Sure, he knew the first level of the dream wasn't real, but not the second level. "Mr. Charles" was gaining Fischer's trust by directing his attention to everything else that was strange and not himself. Notice when he first shows up that the "projections" directly look at Cobb like they're ready to kill him. Twice. Then Cobb makes Fischer suspicious of his own subconscious and let Fischer's Paranoia Fuel take care of the rest.
• Inception doesn't work that way. The idea was that they wanted to make Fischer want to break up his company. This one simple idea was all they wanted to incept. Everything else, from believing that Browning was a crook to his father's will, was never meant to completely stick. In fact, when Fischer woke up, it's highly likely that he didn't even REMEMBER the kidnapping or the will. But the thought, "Gee...maybe I should break up Dad's company and make my own" would be on his mind for some time.

Yes but that doesn' explain why Cillian doesn't have flies and dogs etc attacking any and all intruders as part of his mental deffences.

Because the projections are all human. In any case, explain how dogs and flies would work better than automatic rifles.

So the machine cannot be explained asnd still looks kinda stupid ok.

So this opinion is just unfounded ok.

Ok Adriadne shoulda told somebody and how is it that a newbie clocked on so quickly and the others not so much? Arthur had more than just suspicions I'd imagine. You say he altererd the plan loads but others did a lot of work. Including Ellen Page with her quick thinking. Truth is that Cobb did make the mission more complicated and threatened it. Ok he preformed inception before but it was Adriadne who was the architect and the one who constrcuted whe world and it's scenarios so in effect she planted this idea as well as Tom Hardys charachter through his illusion ability.

The fact that Ariadne was an outsider was exactly why she was able to see it. Arthur was Cobb's friend and trusted that Cobb had it under control. Eames was just a professional acquaintance and didn't even know about his problmes. They'd never met Saito or Yusuf before this. Even so, Cobb paid Yusuf off with double the pay and Saito was the client in the first place. He'd have gone through with it no matter what.

All you're arguing is that every character was important—which they were. Changing the mission time from a week to an hour was Cobb's idea. Mr. Charles was Cobb's idea. Switching the subject of animosity to Browning was his idea. Using a shortcut through the labyrinth was his idea. The fact that everyone else contributed good ideas of their own in no way invalidates Cobb's.

Ok it was an audition but that previous architect, I thought he grassed him up? what happened to him?

Nothing. Saito says this.

Alright so S Aito takes care of these people after his head. What by paying them off or something. They coulda explained that in more detail I think.

Law of Conservation of Detail

Ok so they needed to go deeper and deeper into the layers and yet they coulda done that and created thinly veiled walls to hide stuff within the layers such as safe houses and stuff. But I was thinking couldn't they add another layer by breaking up a layer into different segments and thus they might be able to go deeper with the same level of layers. As it seems layers are basicly just sets like you'd have in a massive stage play.

No. "Layers" are just that..."layers". You don't build a three layer cake by making half of it chocolate and the other strawberry. You put one layer underneath the other layer.

Ok but Tom Hardy is a good actor so couldn't he fool the subconcious? I mean what if someone could create the conditions for a genuine yawn or induce one? But I think yawning is still different from this though. I remember that guy with brown hair though kissing Ellen Page might draw away attention so it seems acting differently might've helped so Tom's ability coulda worked. Then again that guy mighta just been trying it on with Ellen Paige.

You can't "create perfect conditions for a genuine yawn". That's the entire point. There is no way to fake a yawn that will fool the subconscious. Also, the kiss completely failed. Ariadne directly says this. Even fooling the subject himself doesn't fool the subconscious. Cobb still got attacked even after he tricked Fischer.

Also if this movie is all psychologcal then shouldn't one of them be like fully trained psychologist? I mean we understand how to make subliminal messages and it is descirbed in the helicopter of how they try to plant an idea but without the subject knowing but stilla fully trained psychologist coulda helped.

Technically, this is better than psychology. In real life, psychology is very...controversial science. Some people think it's completely magical pseudo-science bullshit while others think it's the greatest way to human understanding. Psychology is being altered and changed so much that what people once thought a few years ago can be completely redefined today. Hell, they can't even agree on diagnoses.

But what you have in this movie is a way to turn a surreal environment into a rigorous physical world with established rules. If anything, PASIV technology would make psychology completely obsolete.

Now that brown haired guy had gins and stuff but no knivews and short ranged weapons?

Wouldn't help much against armored soldiers.

Ok the subject has to populatte the place with their own character and all but Cobb was able to manifest his wife so why couldn't the guys just manifest buddies to help em out? I know Cobb was kinda unstable but they could manifesdt stuff like guns through will so why not people to help em out thwn things got hot?

It's not conscious, and even if it was, you might not even be able to control it. If I manifested, let's say, juancarlos11 into my dream, the crazy bastard might just turn around and shoot me instead of the enemy. (Heh, sorry bro. )

When Cillian Murphy's character got taken to that Arctic place, did he bother to check for any of his own belongings that shoulda been with him? Like his wallet? Youn know not quite a totem but something kinda like the opposite.

For what reason would he do this?

If Ellen Paige is the Architecht then why can't she imagaine some defense that could help them out? Like some automated defenses like robots or drones?

The Architect designs the dream BEFOREHAND, not during. Yusuf, Arthur, and Eames were the actual people dreaming. Not to mention that the more changes you make to the dream, the most powerful the projections become.

Wouldn't Cillian Murphy's defense trainer give him an annoying alarm clock that should ring every half hour or something? That way he'd only sleep on his own bed and not in random locations where he would be too vulnerable. Okay now mobile phoones get switched off but electronic wathces? The more timekeeping devices the better.

First of all, it wouldn't help. He was sedated. Second of all, people in Real Life get pissed off every time they have to enter a passkey to get into work...and that's just a DAILY ritual. Can you imagine how annoying it would get to be real quickly to have an alarm go off every 30 minutes when absolutely nothing happens day in, day out? Imagine if your computer asked you to type in a password every 30 minutes.

If Cillian Murphy knew he was in a dream already the shouldn't he have known that the only ones who carry that inception tech are the ones trying to break into your mind in the first place?

He suspected Cobb at first, but Cobb pointed out the projections and made Fischer believe the projections were the bad guys. There were 50/50 odds that Fischer would trust either Cobb or his own projections, and he chose Cobb. That is exactly why Arthur was so against the plan.

Though Cillian Murphy is breaking into his God-Father's mind through inception then shouldn't he be suspicious that he doesn't encounter him there?

A fair point, but one that can be argued simply by the fact that Browning could have been somewhere else at the time.

Why couldn't Yusuf drive a better armoured SUV for the pickup and that way they could avoid getting shot.

Come on, now. That van got shot to pieces, crashed into everything under the sun, and even tumbled over once. The van was pretty damn tough as it was.

I'm sure of got many others but yeah.

Bring it.

EDIT:

No he will care as like any rational human being he would consider the pros cons and how feasible it is.

This isn't some Martin Luthor King stuff. Ideas and serious ideas take some real time and deliberation. A random idea is for most people a distraction fro everyday lives. I could concieve an oil drill powered by tidal waves and yet how far in reality do you think most people will get with that?

For modern ideas you need concensus and to work with other people. Fishcer would probably need some confident or to discuss this idea properly.

Not how Inception works. Feasibility has nothing to do with it, or else Mal would have had no problem. The whole risk to Inception is that the idea, no matter how groundless, impossible, or unrealistic, takes a ground root in the person's subconscious and most—if not all—free thought is used to bring the idea to fruition. Not to mention that the "tidal-wave-powered-oil-drill" is a straw argument; at the very least, you would spend the rest of your life thinking it was possible, like Nikola Tesla and his death ray. In Fischer's case, however, he was about to inherent absolute control over a corporation. Dismantling it would be a piece of cake.

edited 29th Jan '11 2:10:56 AM by KingZeal

Not only what King Zeal says, but also something Ebert said. You just cannot rationalize a movie if the movie doesn't bring logic into it. If the movie gives you and defines you a concept you MUST accept it.

@KZ: I just read the bit with my name and I just had to MOFW that motherfucker.

edited 29th Jan '11 9:19:39 AM by juancarlos11

Er no he always knew his wife wasn't real since the beginning of the movie. He had reservations shooting her because is it easy to shoot your loved one? Easy or not there is still emotion involved. Mal tells Cobb he's messed up but that's more to do with his guilt. It still doesn't explain why under stress they didn't imagine Superman or Ninjas to help em out.

Ok now that's stupid that they can't manifest their own shit. If I manifested stuff with something unique to me much like a totem then you'd know I'm the real deal.

Ok so The Mr Charles gambit requireds they didn't believ any of it was real then that's evenw worse as they could imagine jet packs or hovercrafts and whatnot. Plus you should kinda have something to convince other peope your real anyways. Like a signature of sorts.

Ok so he gets the idea but not the story seems stupid. If in my mind an idea popped up without a story I would almost instantly dissmiss it. Sometimes I would be like "gee I want icecream" doesn't mean I act on it. Although yeah when you push into lucid dreaming you do concieve of things you can't normally do but still it's more bizarre and vague which doesn't take any proper form and gets easily forgotten.

Waking up and thinking "gee I should split up the company" should obviously get some paranoia and suspicion from a guy who knows about extraction.

But why are all the projections human? Why can't they be animals? And sure flies might not stop intruders but dogs, snakes n stuff could still help out.

The machine still has no real explanation. Heck we could say that because we don't know how the machine works that they could have been in a dream from the start.

I still think that was only because he screwed up in the first place. I argue the other guys coulda done it without him seeing as Arthur knew about that gambit anyways and also it was Ellen Paiges's character that created the most important construction of Cillian Muphy's father and the actual idea. Ellen Paige created the shortcut in the labrinth anyways so she coulda tol them about it.

Nothing happens to the traitor, yeah right whata let down. I thought Saito would make an example of him and have him killed to show that you don't mess with him and Rewarded as a Traitor Deserves.

Ok Law Of Conservation Of Detail sounds like they're too lazy to give an explantation that would ease our minds. How was Saito to fix the porblems of hit men? Don't they follow a code where they always finish a job once they are paid?

Ok but say I make layers so one city is New York, the other is London, the third is Tokyo. Well cities have little ethnic enclaves like Chinatown so can't you invisage such an area within a layer that represents a different place? At the very least they coulda put some kind of safehouse and stuff in some of the layers as they had shortcuts and stuff in mind so why they wouldn't create a safe zone for emergencies sounds dumb for profeesionals.

Ok so Tom Hardy can only discieve the conscious but can't they all make themselves like giants or really muscly dudes to make fighting easier? Not quite an illusion ability but it is the ability to percieve yourself differently.

Ok yeah Freudian Science sounds dumb and yet psychology can be used with some degree of success. It seems stupid that the team wouldn't get a psychologist to help em out.

PASIV wouldn't make psychology obsolete as it also a way of understanding a person's motives, history, future actions. PASIV technology allows you to constuct something but you also need to know your subject to the full and be able to warm read or cold-read them Take Darren Brown who is a mentalist and specialises in illusions. I think he would be an absolute pro for using inception as he pulls illusions in real life. So why can't they hire a mentalis?

Not all the soldiers were armoured and he was tussling with them when gravity was all wonky. It makes no sense why he didn't.

A gun doesn't turn around and shoot you just because you made it in the dream. I mean Mal kinda helped out Cobb in the beginning by sitting on that chair and it isn't like they aren't helpfull in any way. Let's not forget that Mal was unstable because that was also how she was like in real life before she died. Cobb's projection of Mal was made to be accurate in character and motive. So if I manifest some old friends I expect them to help me out because we're friends and I know they would.

And also Cobb told Cillian Murphy's character that there were a bunch of hostile mainfestations about him so it must be possible for an architect to make manifestations to serve them. Cillian could only believe this if it was possible.

When Cillian Murphy's character got taken to that Arctic place, did he bother to check for any of his own belongings that shoulda been with him? Like his wallet? Youn know not quite a totem but something kinda like the opposite.

The purpose of a reverse totem is the lack of an object to tell you that it is reality. If I'm in a dream and I realise I'm missing something imporatant and something I never leave without then I know something is wrong. Shouldn't Cillian have been trained so that he would have a reverse totem which is an item he can only have in the real world and when he doesn't he knows he's dreaming?

Yeah but seeing as they're professionals and they have known about dream defences before then shouldn't it have become standard practices to incorporate defences? I mean it would be a security measure.

He was sedated but the trigger was a sound one. I think an annoying sound could kicked him back. But also you stop the alarm before it goes of. You know when it is going off so you stop it and then restart it but if you don't it goes off. It may be somewhat annoying but if it prevents me from having my head hacked I would be more than willing to do it.

Ok so that just means the plan was bad then. The projections were against him as they shoulda been normally and Cillain should known this and combined with the fact that they had the tech he shoulda been even more suspicious.

So you don't think Browning wouldn't be close to his own secret and guarding it? Saito was close to his secret.

The van was tough but it coulda been tougher. Infact like I said it should been standard proceedure for these dudes to always drive armoured vehicles in these situations to maximis security.

No I would think the tidal powered oil drill would be cool but I would know it is beyond my capability. So in the same instance spiltting up the company in reality woulda been far beyond the capability of Cillian's character. Plus being having the controlling share doesn't mean you can screw up the comapny. the board has rights. If they think you're going aginst what is best for the company then they can battle you. Plus you know when your ideas are stupid and when they are not. If I dream that I wanna be a rockstar well I wouldn't because I know in reality it's hard to do and that there are much safer and better paths.

Other quastions are:

• Does inception leave any leftover marks and I assume it doesn't but to hack into the brain I would assume piercing skin be neccessary. And then you'd get after effects like a sore arm or whatever.
• Why the heck did Cobb even need to see Michael Caine in person other for some excuse of a cameo. In the 2007 incredible Hulk , Bruce Banner used a pseudonym and had his signal scambled and rerouted to contact people. It seems stupid that Cobb would take the risk of going to France and meeting Michael Caine in person.
• Yusuf was a chemist and all but wouldn't they need medical history of Cillian Murphy's character to know if he had any conditions or medical complications? I think cracked explains it that sedatives cannot be in universal quantities and have to be in specific amounts for certain individuals. And Cillian just took like a sip and he was out, it was also diluted by water and cooled by ice.
• Why couldn't the architect also concieve of animals? Having no pigeons in New York or cities would make it seems odd.
• If Cillian knew he was in a dream but limbo might await him then shouldn't he dicth Cobb and wait it out on his own whilst his dream defences tear up the illusion. You know shoot missiles and tear up the place. I mean in Saito's second dream his defences were tearing up shit.
• When he got the gun why didn't he just shoot Cobb? He wouldn't be killing anybody real and it would be like in Departed where you shoot someone who you can't trust and they've just revelaed themselves so Matt Damon shot him for his own safety.
• Cillian Murphy got shot in that arctic place so was he not wearing body armour or something in a hostile environment?

I've probably got loads more but this movie is 3 star at best for me.

I'm going to let King Zeal deal with you. But I'll say something first. And my god am I gonna get thumped for this:

What you're doing is fuck logic up the ass while sucking denial's cock.

Also: YOU CANNOT CREATE PROJECTIONS AT WILL! YOU CANNOT CONTROL THEM! THEY ARE YOUR SUBCONCIOUS! YOU DON'T CONTROL YOUR SUBCONCIOUS.

Now, it's KZ's turn.

Er no he always knew his wife wasn't real since the beginning of the movie. He had reservations shooting her because is it easy to shoot your loved one? Easy or not there is still emotion involved. Mal tells Cobb he's messed up but that's more to do with his guilt. It still doesn't explain why under stress they didn't imagine Superman or Ninjas to help em out.

Oh for the love of—it is directly stated several times that Cobb is in denial about the real world. When asked why he keeps forcing himself to dream about Mal, he says, "because in my dreams we're still together". When he fails to snipe Mal, Ariadne says "She's not real!" and Cobb replies "How do you know that?!" When Cobb is in Limbo, Mal says "Are you sure you don't feel persecuted? Chase by anonymous thugs like the way the projections persecute the dreamer?"

Arguing this point any further is just pointless, since the movie tells us that Cobb was in denial with no uncertain terms. Also, once again, the projections are subconscious. You cannot control them or something anything to help you out.

Ok so The Mr Charles gambit requireds they didn't believ any of it was real then that's evenw worse as they could imagine jet packs or hovercrafts and whatnot. Plus you should kinda have something to convince other peope your real anyways. Like a signature of sorts.

What are you talking about? The Mr Charlse gambit required that only Fischer know he was dreaming. There's nothing that someone else can have to convince you that they're real. If you're trapped in a dream, you already believe it's real.

Ok so he gets the idea but not the story seems stupid. If in my mind an idea popped up without a story I would almost instantly dissmiss it. Sometimes I would be like "gee I want icecream" doesn't mean I act on it. Although yeah when you push into lucid dreaming you do concieve of things you can't normally do but still it's more bizarre and vague which doesn't take any proper form and gets easily forgotten.

You're missing the point of the "subconscious". Every person on earth has a subconscious reaction or belief that is nearly impossible to trace the origin of. For example, if someone's eye twitches every time they hear the word "red", they may not know WHY this happens, only that it does.

Waking up and thinking "gee I should split up the company" should obviously get some paranoia and suspicion from a guy who knows about extraction.

And who's to say it didn't? Their job was to put the idea there, not to make sure Fischer went through with it.

But why are all the projections human? Why can't they be animals? And sure flies might not stop intruders but dogs, snakes n stuff could still help out.

How? How could they possibly help? And again, the projections are subconscious. You don't create them. You don't decide what powers they have. You can only make them hostile.

The machine still has no real explanation. Heck we could say that because we don't know how the machine works that they could have been in a dream from the start.

Yeah. That was kind of the point.

Quick: What type of fuel does Iron Man's rocket boots use? Wait, you mean the movie doesn't tell us? Because it isn't important.

I still think that was only because he screwed up in the first place. I argue the other guys coulda done it without him seeing as Arthur knew about that gambit anyways and also it was Ellen Paiges's character that created the most important construction of Cillian Muphy's father and the actual idea. Ellen Paige created the shortcut in the labrinth anyways so she coulda tol them about it.

• Arthur didn't want to do the gambit, remember?
• Ariadne didn't put Fischer's father in the vault—Fischer himself did. Remember when they say, "Let's hope Fischer likes what he finds in the vault." Fischer's own subconscious populated the vault (because, again, that's how PASIV technology works). Ariadne had nothing to do with that.
• Eames created the shortcut, not her.

Nothing happens to the traitor, yeah right whata let down. I thought Saito would make an example of him and have him killed to show that you don't mess with him and Rewarded As A Traitor Deserves.

He didn't betray Saito—he betrayed Cobb. Saito brought him to Cobb to do as he saw fit and Cobb didn't want to kill him. So Saito let him go.

Ok Law Of Conservation Of Detail sounds like they're too lazy to give an explantation that would ease our minds. How was Saito to fix the porblems of hit men? Don't they follow a code where they always finish a job once they are paid?

No, they do not. All Saito would need to do is pay them double or triple whatever they were being offered, or hire his own goons to kill them as well as the people who hired them.

Ok but say I make layers so one city is New York, the other is London, the third is Tokyo. Well cities have little ethnic enclaves like Chinatown so can't you invisage such an area within a layer that represents a different place? At the very least they coulda put some kind of safehouse and stuff in some of the layers as they had shortcuts and stuff in mind so why they wouldn't create a safe zone for emergencies sounds dumb for profeesionals.

Because each layer is a part of the mind. Honestly, this is how psychoanalysts believe the mind works for real. There's conscious thought as the first layer, collective subconscious as the next layer, and then deep subconscious as the final layer. In the context of the movie, going deeper requires dreaming within dreams.

Ok so Tom Hardy can only discieve the conscious but can't they all make themselves like giants or really muscly dudes to make fighting easier? Not quite an illusion ability but it is the ability to percieve yourself differently.

That would be helpful if fighting were the goal of the mission—which it wasn't. The goal was to manipulate Fischer into thinking what they wanted him to think. To do that, they couldn't start changing crap and tip him off that they were invading his dream. And even then, it's explicitly said earlier in the movie that the more drastically you change a dream, the deadlier the projections fight back.

Ok yeah Freudian Science sounds dumb and yet psychology can be used with some degree of success. It seems stupid that the team wouldn't get a psychologist to help em out.

Not all psychology is Freudian. And like I said, PASIV technology is unquestionably better.

PASIV wouldn't make psychology obsolete as it also a way of understanding a person's motives, history, future actions. PASIV technology allows you to constuct something but you also need to know your subject to the full and be able to warm read or cold-read them Take Darren Brown who is a mentalist and specialises in illusions. I think he would be an absolute pro for using inception as he pulls illusions in real life. So why can't they hire a mentalis?

Again, they do all this without a psychologist. For example, on the second level of the dream, Eames tells Saito that they need to follow the mental projection of Browning. When Saito asks why, he responds "because the way Browning acts will tell us if Fischer suspects him the way we want him to". You see what they did there? They created an actual physical manifestion of Fischer's emotions and observed how Fischer was reacting based on the behavior of that manifestation. This is a FAR MORE EXACT process than psychology could ever hope for. Do you know how many therapy session it would save if instead of trying to build a profile to figure out how someone feels you could just have them physically manifest that feeling?

THAT is why PASIV would make psychology obsolete.

Not all the soldiers were armoured and he was tussling with them when gravity was all wonky. It makes no sense why he didn't.

As we learned earlier in the movie, Arthur isn't the most imaginative guy. "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." And besides that, any weapon you dream up is one that could be used against you. Arthur choked out that projection with his bare hands—trying to use a knife just creates a risk that he could be disarmed and stabbed himself.

A gun doesn't turn around and shoot you just because you made it in the dream. I mean Mal kinda helped out Cobb in the beginning by sitting on that chair and it isn't like they aren't helpfull in any way. Let's not forget that Mal was unstable because that was also how she was like in real life before she died. Cobb's projection of Mal was made to be accurate in character and motive. So if I manifest some old friends I expect them to help me out because we're friends and I know they would.

A gun also isn't a person. And what? Did you miss the part where Mal got up out of the chair and almost made Cobb fall?

Also, no. Cobb specifically says that the projection of Mal in his dreams was just a shade of the real woman. The real Mal may have gone crazy, but she wasn't homicidal. The point is that anyone you dream up will be your subconscious creating that person for you. You will NOT be able to control or predict what they do.

And also Cobb told Cillian Murphy's character that there were a bunch of hostile mainfestations about him so it must be possible for an architect to make manifestations to serve them. Cillian could only believe this if it was possible.

What? No...Cobb lied and told him that the people following them were the kidnappers. But WE know they were Fischer's security projections. Fischer didn't.

When Cillian Murphy's character got taken to that Arctic place, did he bother to check for any of his own belongings that shoulda been with him? Like his wallet? Youn know not quite a totem but something kinda like the opposite.

Again...why would he do this? How would this help him in the slightest?

Also, his possessions would be there. Remember, they stole his wallet on the first dream level, and he still had it on the second.

The purpose of a reverse totem is the lack of an object to tell you that it is reality. If I'm in a dream and I realise I'm missing something imporatant and something I never leave without then I know something is wrong. Shouldn't Cillian have been trained so that he would have a reverse totem which is an item he can only have in the real world and when he doesn't he knows he's dreaming?

Wouldn't help. If you recall, when he was dreaming, he had everything on him that he had in real life.

Yeah but seeing as they're professionals and they have known about dream defences before then shouldn't it have become standard practices to incorporate defences? I mean it would be a security measure.

Yes, if they had been prepared for Fischer's security. That's why Cobb was so pissed at Arthur—because they went into the dream with no preparation for the level of security they were fighting. They made a mistake. Professionals do that.

He was sedated but the trigger was a sound one. I think an annoying sound could kicked him back. But also you stop the alarm before it goes of. You know when it is going off so you stop it and then restart it but if you don't it goes off. It may be somewhat annoying but if it prevents me from having my head hacked I would be more than willing to do it.

The trigger wasn't used in the real world during the mission. At no point did anyone put headphones over Yusuf's ears...because he wouldn't have heard them.

And again, why not start with your computer? Start with creating a program that asks you for a password every 30 minutes. See how long you get before it pisses you off. And then think about having that same annoyance everywhere you go.

Ok so that just means the plan was bad then. The projections were against him as they shoulda been normally and Cillain should known this and combined with the fact that they had the tech he shoulda been even more suspicious.

They didn't have any tech. They set it up so that they found it in "Browning's" room, letting Fischer come to his own conclusions. Again, Fischer made the wrong choice—but that's how con men work.

So you don't think Browning wouldn't be close to his own secret and guarding it? Saito was close to his secret.

Saito was prepared for the extraction. Browning was not.

The van was tough but it coulda been tougher. Infact like I said it should been standard proceedure for these dudes to always drive armoured vehicles in these situations to maximis security.

Now you're just nitpicking. Like I said, it wasn't like they knew they'd be dealing with gunfire.

No I would think the tidal powered oil drill would be cool but I would know it is beyond my capability. So in the same instance spiltting up the company in reality woulda been far beyond the capability of Cillian's character. Plus being having the controlling share doesn't mean you can screw up the comapny. the board has rights. If they think you're going aginst what is best for the company then they can battle you. Plus you know when your ideas are stupid and when they are not. If I dream that I wanna be a rockstar well I wouldn't because I know in reality it's hard to do and that there are much safer and better paths.

For one thing, who said there was a board? The company could be privately-owned. For two, the point of inception is that you OBSESS over this idea. Cobb explicitly says this. This is not just something like, "Oh you know, it'd be cool if I went skiing tomorrow." No...when you're incepted, that idea grows and festers in your mind like a cancer. Cobb states this over and over and over. This is an idea you do NOT give up on.

Does inception leave any leftover marks and I assume it doesn't but to hack into the brain I would assume piercing skin be neccessary. And then you'd get after effects like a sore arm or whatever.

As far as I know, it doesn't.

Why the heck did Cobb even need to see Michael Caine in person other for some excuse of a cameo. In the 2007 incredible Hulk , Bruce Banner used a pseudonym and had his signal scambled and rerouted to contact people. It seems stupid that Cobb would take the risk of going to France and meeting Michael Caine in person.

He also went there to drop off some presents for his kids. He says himself that he knows it's a risk, but hey—they're his kids.

Yusuf was a chemist and all but wouldn't they need medical history of Cillian Murphy's character to know if he had any conditions or medical complications? I think cracked explains it that sedatives cannot be in universal quantities and have to be in specific amounts for certain individuals. And Cillian just took like a sip and he was out, it was also diluted by water and cooled by ice.

They did do a background check on the man.

Why couldn't the architect also concieve of animals? Having no pigeons in New York or cities would make it seems odd.

Remember the scene when they take a test run inside of the constructed city? It's completely empty except for them. No people, no animals, no nothing. They construct the architecture and that's it.

If Cillian knew he was in a dream but limbo might await him then shouldn't he dicth Cobb and wait it out on his own whilst his dream defences tear up the illusion. You know shoot missiles and tear up the place. I mean in Saito's second dream his defences were tearing up shit.

He tried to do that, and Cobb talked him out of it. Remember, Limbo is a place you DO NOT WANT TO BE.

When he got the gun why didn't he just shoot Cobb? He wouldn't be killing anybody real and it would be like in Departed where you shoot someone who you can't trust and they've just revelaed themselves so Matt Damon shot him for his own safety.

As far as he knew, Cobb was the only person he could trust.

Cillian Murphy got shot in that arctic place so was he not wearing body armour or something in a hostile environment?

Probably not. That stuff weighs a fucking ton and limits your mobility—especially on SNOW.

Oh for the love of—it is directly stated several times that Cobb is in denial about the real world

You had my complete attention and respect in this moment, pal.

KZ's got this, so I won't weigh in. But please learn to use quotation marks, Shinfernape.

Also, punctuation.

No Cobb would prefer the illusion like how many people would but he distincly know the difference between reality and fantasy. He knows his wife was dead from the start, he knows the parts of his mind that begin affecting the illusion such as the crazy train. Much in the same way we all have our fantasies but we know the difference between them and reality. Cobb never thought his wife was really alive in the real world for most the movie anways. I think in the arctic he did ask because he wavered slightly but it was just a tiny waver. He kept her in his mind because of guilt. Just kinda like in Advent Children how Aerith was constantly in Cloud's mind because he felt guilty. But he was guilty BECAUSE she is dead. So he knows the overhwleming truth of reality but the fantasy provides and allure which just isn't strong enough. Cobb went to limbo and he always knew it wasn't real.

My point is that in this Mr Charles Gambit if you don't need to convince them it is reality then you yourself can bend as many rules and go all out with cool jetpacks and armoured tanks etc.

Ok your saying the subconscious can make us do things without us realising and then what heppens? we begin to consciously think soon after. If I'm shaking my leg whilst I sit that could eb a subconscious action but then I am made aware and then I stop. Reason and logic should provide a counter to stop these kinds of subconscious or instinctual behaviours.

So you say Fisher didn't go through with it? I'm just saying because Saito honoured their deal and all and I thought he woulkd be aman who want's results.

Then subconsciously why would be restricted to human anyway? To make the illusion believeable you would need animals and other such things too. But if they aren't totally hostile as even Mal was made to be helpfull by giving up Fisher.

Ok the point that the machine is made to be ambigious to convincew us the whole thing could have been a dream, well that rubs me the wrong way. They're trying to confuse us about what is a dram and what is reality tot he point where I don't care because the reality is that I'm watching a Christopher Noland movie which is just fantasy. It's like a dog trying to tell me it's a dog OR IS IT... No it is a dog, I have better things to do and spendmy energies on then trying to be tricked into second geussing the obvious and the unimportant.

Ironman's boots use ionic propulsion I believe. It's not a propulsion that relies on combustion. Iroman's palm repulsors are also just the same hence he uses them in tandem.

Ok so Fisher created his own illusion but that was promped by Tom Hardy pretending to be his god father. It was the whole elephant example as before in that he told him what to think and find and his mind filled out the blanks.

Tom Hardy created the short cut you say? But I thought E Llen Paige as the architect helped to construct the world so she would kniw. Either way not much credit for Cobb. Ok Arthur didn't wanna do the gambit but we all know the gambit wsa kinda dumb anyways and it worked more to with the fact that Cillian was kinda gullible in the movie.

In the end Cobb I think endangered the mission more than helped it out.

Yeah he let a guy walk away who can spill his mouth and knows all about the secrets of extraction and about Cobb, his methods etc. Sure in the world of mind espionage that certainly sounds like a smart move.

Ok so he sends his own goons after or pay off the hunters. But can Saito hope to pay off everybody? I mean he can pay to get rid off imediate threats but what say someone bides their time and then makes their move. I don't think Saito be looking to give Cobb life protection there.

Yes there are layers but their can be segments in the layers like I said with the Chinatown example. Maximising the sets for optimum effect. Or at the least creating safehouses and secure locations.

But Tom Hardy was brawling all those dudes in the arctic. SO yeah he could have altered the perception of himself to make him a freaking behemoth.

PASIV wouldn't make psychology obsolete as it also a way of understanding a person's motives, history, future actions. PASIV technology allows you to constuct something but you also need to know your subject to the full and be able to warm read or cold-read them Take Darren Brown who is a mentalist and specialises in illusions. I think he would be an absolute pro for using inception as he pulls illusions in real life. So why can't they hire a mentalis?

Yes and that's nice but a true mentalist like Darren Brown is already a pro at illusions at entering into someone's mind WITHOUT PASIV. The expertise of a mentalist or a psycholigist would have really helped out. Now Tom Hardy was trying to read the relatiuonship with Cillian Musphy and Pete Postlewaith but Darren Brown could have cold-read him or done it way better and better still make even better illusions. A mentalist can be an architect AND analyse the subject to extract or input information. If anything PASIV makes mentalists even better at their jobs as they have better tools. I mean we enter Cillian Musphy's head but what do we really learn about him? His childhood, adolesence etc. His hobbies his friends his fears? We know about his relationship with his father but not much else. A mentalist like Darren Brown would get a far more complete picture and so possibly could a psychologist. Although a mentalist is the perfect choice.

Yeah Arthus isn't imaginitive but stupid? A knife isn't very hard to imagine. As soon as we get into close comabt we thing "need something sharp and pointy" or just hard and thus they improvise weapons like breaking bottles or crowbars. Even then he could have ust imagined a gun and shot them.

Yeah Mal did that but Cobb was able to make use of Mal to reveal where Fisher was.

Er Mal wanted to die and Cobb to join her. And Cobb was able to predict that Mal was dangerous whenever she appeared because it was relatively the same outcome. She was violent toward anyone who wasn't Cobb. She was crazy in real life and crazy in the illusion. I know Cobb compared her to a shadow and said she souldn't be as complex anyways. I know they said in the movie that subconcious projecttions can't be controlled but he did manage to reason with Mal which makes me think that other projections acn also be reasoned with to do what you want.

And also Cobb told Cillian Murphy's character that there were a bunch of hostile mainfestations about him so it must be possible for an architect to make manifestations to serve them. Cillian could only believe this if it was possible.

Ok so Fisher thought the projections were of the real life kidnappers but projections cannot harm the subject. But the whole damn place had people staring. People who were of all sort, old people, young etc.

So why Fisher didn't get that they were his own security seems confusing.

Ok he would have everything on him from real life however when he went to the arctitc zone did he still have his wallet? Did Cillian eve get a normal totem when he went to the arctic zone? something to remind him it is a dream?

Yeah professionals follow proceedure as well and take no chances. I'm saying they should have those defences and stuff sor evert extraction and inception they plan.

Yes but a trigger in the real world might have helped wake him up. I think what I'm suggesting is much more different to a password. It is a timer that is reset before it goes off and that doesn't take very long. And security of the mind should be one of the most important things.

Ok but how could Fisher think they could extract info from is God-Father when he was in the dream and HE was the subject. You can't just change subject can you?

Browning wasn't prepared? He had mental defenses there shooting things up and he was aware that extraction was gonna be done to him. He had pre-warning just like Saito.

You call it nitpicking, I call it details that these conment should get righy.

Yeah the idea that an idea grows is what the movie says but cummon I mean he should be able to control himself and rationalise. Y Ou say the company may be private and yet it's more likely to be public in this day an age as it allows it to get capital fast and provide for it's massive size and expansion.

Ok you don't know is the answer as to if there are any risidual effects or leftover pains and marks from PASIV. But the fact they don't take the time to explain these important details says something.

So he takes the risk to drop of some cheap fluffy toys for his kids? He coulda made some online order or something. Doesn't seem worth the risk and it seems like they only shoehorned that to fiot a small cameo of Michael Cane in it.

Yeah I know they did a background check but those are some contolled amounts there, by putting it in his ice cold glace and the fact he took one sip instead of gulping it down.

Sos yeah the architect can't fill it with people, only the subjects can. And Cobb's crazy out of control subconscious. Still I think HISHE joked that when they lose concentraion they bring their own projectioins into it. Like I said when emotions are high Juno might think of Michael Cera.

Yeah I'm not saying he should kill himself. But I'm saying he should lose Cobb and wait for his own projections to clear the place out. I mean his projections can't harm him.

But he doesn't really trust Cobb or he was doubtfull so he should have done what Matt Damon did in Departed and shot him.

Yeah but they looked all millitary like. Believe me the militray do not decide to ditch their body armour in the arctic. Heck they keep it in the desert where they probably feel like they're roasting. And snow ain't that heavy. You always carry boddy armour in ahostile enviroment.

Also how could they stay in Inception when that loud horn music was playing in the background? (joke)

Nah I will think of sum more. But the thing is I question the competance of the movie more than it's acutal themes.

• You said that the subconcious creats characters but can't then why cant the normal conscious create characters too?

edited 29th Jan '11 2:36:05 PM by shinfernape

I question YOUR competence. We're even.

-brofist Charlatan- I'm normally not this much of a dick when it comes to differing opinons, but honestly? You seem like a troll to me, Shinfer.

Ok then we all got flaws but nobody is perfect. I am simply questioning a movie that is intellectual and thus relies heavily on competance. Also it's pretty confusing so it does need clear up.

Yeah asking question's on the movie is totally trolling. I'm asking these question's about the movie for my own sakes and on one elses/

edited 29th Jan '11 2:38:06 PM by shinfernape