Persona series

Justine and Caroline grew on me. SHUT IT INMATE!! I like Lavenza but the twins are okay in my book now.

Better than theo.

So do Dancing Star Night and Dancing Moon Night have plots like like their predecessor or are they not bothering this time?

Wasn't the villain in the first one an evil disco ball or something?

Evil Beads trying to Bond everyone together.

... honestly can't believe they actually did give the first dancing game a plot.

Do I still spoiler late game P5?

got to the Akechi fight on the Ark and wow, this dude is seriously fucked up. And I guess that’s how he bites it, damn.

Well then. I’m assuming his presence in the game is over.

So I've picked this up again in earnest and I got Akechi in the party now.

Pretty sure I spoiled myself on him being the traitor somewhere. Something interesting I noticed is that he doesn't have any party dialogue when you go to talk about the situation in Mementos, almost as if he's not really part of the group (I'm probably reaching, though).

Also, can I just say, the idea that the Phantom Thieves "lost sight" of what they were doing or whatever is kind of dumb? Yeah, it was all a setup but Okumura was still a douche and someone who 100% deserved to be a target regardless of the "fad" surrounding them. It's another one of the pieces of writing in this game that doesn't really make sense.

I think its a "Doing the Right Things or the Wrong Reasons" situation.

Yeah, the idea is they did it less because Okumura was a bunghole and more because they'd be huge if they could take them down. They started out just wanting to make terrible people repent for their actions, but eventually they (well, mostly Ryuji, honestly) became more focused on getting more people to know who they are.

edited 5th May '18 4:16:02 AM by PhysicalStamina

I think the point is that they were losing sight of their goals and beginning to prioritize things like fame and fortune over actually helping people. While it was still okay when it came to Okumura, how long would it have been before they started going after their critics or something like that? I feel like there were some hints of that.

edited 5th May '18 9:50:03 AM by Arha

You could look at it as something similar to what was happening with Mishima, though less far gone than him (and like him, they realized they needed to stop though not until after everything with Haru's dad).

Its important to understand that while Okumura was a scumbag, they only chose him because the Phantom Site had voted for him to do so and that it was a setup by Shido and his subordinates.

I think it would have been more effective if Okumura wasn't a complete jackass to make the Wham moment of it feel more palatable. It's hard to feel sorry for him dying when he was doing so much wrong.

I felt pity for him mostly because he died in such an awful way. I will grant that his death scene is pretty unsettling what with the black liquid coming out of his eyes and everything.

There is the whole "Okumura is not seen as that bad in Japan" thing but I've never been able to fully buy that.

Although this conversation makes me realize how much I'd rather see a follow up to the bad ending than anything related to the good ending.

edited 5th May '18 11:15:11 AM by LordVatek

I don't believe Japan is okay with Okumura. It's probably and sadly a common thing in Japan but that doesn't make it remotely okay.

In fact all of the targets could be seen as social commentary on japanese society. All pretty biting really.

I can see the working people to death thing being thought of as bad but kind of normal, but he also killed people and the story doesn't even pretend he cares about his daughter. I don't think Japan is different enough to overlook that.

yea exactly. It's one thing to overwork people to death; that's unfortunate, but its something that does happen given Japan's society and its not done out of malice. Its another issue entirely when you don't give a shit about your daughter and more than willing to marry her off to somebody who's clearly going to have his way with her.

Which is why the game trying to make us feel sorry for him felt so fucking weird. I mean, I can understand Haru feeling bad out of just respect of being his kid, but it felt like all of them were like "He didn't deserve it"

I dunno, maybe Japan just feels differently on how criminals should be punished.

Ha ha no, you should see the Japanese legal system and the social ostracism surrounding criminals. Sae and the Hanged Man guy barely even touch on it.

edited 5th May '18 11:41:00 AM by Arha

Yeah it's way worse than presented.

I was talking about more in terms of the death penalty. The Social ostracism involved in pretty self-explanatory given everything else they stigmatize about their social structure.

Was that in reference to him being killed, because I have to agree. He might have been a piece of shit, but him getting executed was too much.

My personal take on it: Okumura's overworking of people isn't simply unfortunate, it's a result of his selfishness and greed that shows him/people like him who treat businesses like machines not ran with actual people but components that can be overworked and replaced once they "break down" so to speak. Not to mentions he's only using it for his own gain and frankly doesn't care about his employees as actual human beings. Japan is very aware of its overworking problem, more than anyone else really, but as this game and many other Japanese works show, Japan kind of has this persistent problem of people actively doing very little to solve its problems and just "dealing with it." The emphasis on harmony makes such attitudes more preferable than disrupting the status quo to change something messed up, a big reason change happens so slow in Japan.

Just one murder even if you aren't guilty can get you the death penalty. 2 outright assures it.

Adachi still being alive is unrealistic as a result.

I mean, he's a former cop. I think that'd give him a bit of leeway, a la Kristoph Gavin from Ace Attorney.

The game does this for pretty much all the targets they set up as Complete Monsters. Shadows Kamoshida, Madarame, Kenshiro, and Okumura all give you some kind of sob story after you beat them.