When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

If you're going that way, you might as well play this music over the reveal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZymfI-kQ2eE

Nothing to do with the story but I wondered: who is the person who drew the portraits in the VN? They are way too gorgeous to be from Ryūkishi…

You mean the title card portraits and stuff, like Beatrice, or Erika's or whatever, yeah? I remember I saw it somewhere, but the name didn't stick in my memory. But it definitely wasn't Ryukushi. (Although looking at Rose Guns Days , he's improved a bit himself) Also random bit of trivia I saw someone mention on some other forum.

edited 3rd Nov '12 3:04:05 PM by Oroboro

And I thought those names may have had some profound meaning… well, they have, sort of.

About Episode 2, I thought the scene where Battler meets piece!Beato was in the third person, but the beginning is actually in the first person… Battler can see Kinzō (well, his back), there's a problem here… was it because his anti-magic toxin was low at the time? Or it has something to do with his blue truth about Kinzō in Episode 4… or else, Ryūkishi just messed up… Maybe what Battler saw was just the back of Kinzō's corpse, but even without being burnt it should be significantly decayed at this point, so that's not it.

Reading the beginning of Episode 3, and the scene where Shannon reminds Battler of his silly line sounds less funny and a lot more spiteful after reading Episode 7.

edited 5th Nov '12 7:53:07 AM by Lyendith

The general explanation for the end of EP 2 there is that Battler is either drunk off his ass, or the clock has struck 12 and the island has been engulfed by the golden land.

Boom!

And the majority of Shannon/Kanon's dialogue can seem that way with hindsight. XD

edited 5th Nov '12 3:35:56 PM by Oroboro

True. As for the hour, I thought it happened at 23:59, but yeah, it's not impossible that it's already past midnight by the time of the scene…

—-

Episode 3, first twilight… I had the "someone played dead and Nanjō hid it" in mind, but the six victims are indeed dead, crap… that would have been too easy… Bah, it's not that hard with a little twist. It has not been said in red that "the victims were all killed where they were found", but I'll assume it's the case. It's not that important anyway.

The culprit somehow got their hands on the six keys in the servants' room. Then they killed Shannon, took her master key and locked her in the parlor after putting the key of the 2nd floor's guestroom near her corpse.

Then they killed Kumasawa and locked her in the 2nd floor's guestroom, after putting the key of the 3rd floor's waiting room near her corpse.

Then they killed Gōda and locked him in the 3rd floor's waiting room after putting the key of the 2nd floor's VIP room near his corpse.

Then they killed Genji and locked him in the 2nd floor's VIP room after putting the key of the boiler room near his corpse.

Then they killed Kanon and locked him in the chapel after putting the key to the 1st floor's parlor near his corpse.

Then they went down in the boiler room and put the key of the chapel and the letter nearby Kinzō's corpse.

In the morning, the culprit proposed to check the parlor first and, while "examining" Shannon's corpse, discreetly put her master key back in her pocket.

Now as to who the culprit is… it seems that all the siblings were in the dining hall until morning and that the cousins were all in their room. That leaves only Nanjō without an alibi, but it's hard to confirm whether the siblings really were never alone. You need quite a lot of free time to set up all that though, and there are probably several people involved. I don't think Eva is a culprit, as there seems to be a difference between before and after she found the gold ; or maybe there is not and all that happens with EVA is actually part of Beato's scenario. Whichever it is, the culprit of the first twilight can be just about anyone of the siblings… I can't really imagine Nanjō murdering 6 people that easily…

Also Kanon has a corpse it seems… we are not shown whether Battler saw it directly though…

I also find it odd that Shannon was the first to die in this game. In the first game there is a high probability that she faked her death (although I don't remember if Beato confirms the 1st game's deaths at the end of Episode 4) and in the second and fourth ones she is among the last to die. The 3rd game really has a lot of oddities compared to the others.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:08:50 AM by Lyendith

Actually, if you read the manga, Rosa and Kyrie left the dining hall, supposedly to watch the kids.

If I remember correctly, Battler never actually saw the corpses from the first twilight, he only heard about it from the adults afterwords. He DID however, confirm the deaths of Rosa/Maria, Kyrie/Rudolf/Hideyoshi, and I THINK Krauss/Natsuhi, but I can't quite remember. Evatrice's final riddle pretty much requires someone to have been faking their deaths.

(I should really get around to rereading.)

The implication In Will's explanation for that first twilight "In a circle of closed rooms, the beginning and the end overlap" is that Shannon insured she'd be found first by being the only locked room on the first floor, which could be reached by breaking a window, and then once Nanjo lied about her being dead, ran off after the adults left and hid herself in the chapel as Kanon.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:32:26 AM by Oroboro

Oh, that's some hint.

Except she's confirmed dead in red… unless she died accidentally just after as Battler theorised, but that would be a bit absurd.

However, since George wasn't allowed to see Shannon's corpse, it must be the same for the other cousins, so Battler probably didn't see them either. Now, concerning "the beginning and the end overlap", that could also be about the culprit taking the key from Shannon when they killed her and putting in back in her pocket when they "found" her. After all, that last step is what completes the closed room.

I'm assuming the "final riddle" refers to Dr. Nanjo with this.

George killed Dr. Nanjo.

Here's the explanation. In the previous twilight, IIRC, George was shot in the lower abdomen, most likely within the intestinal region. He was also not given a proper examination to confirm his death (he was also not confirmed dead in red until the Eva Beatrice red truth bomb). Given this information, with my background, I can say this.

George's death being instant is HIGHLY unlikely as death from intestinal gunshot wounds usually takes hours, either from internal infection or bleeding out. It depends on what was hit. George is likely unconscious at the time of Battler's entrance.

Dr. Nanjo shot George. Due to the posistion of the wound, this was likely a panicked "snap fire" shot.

Note that the red truth about Dr. Nanjo not being a killer refers to the 1st novel.

edited 12th Nov '12 7:10:47 PM by magnum12

The "Answer" is that a character can die, even if the actor playing them is still running around. It's not a solution a lot of people are particularly thrilled with (Which is why Rosatrice seems so popular. :{ ) but it's the solution Ryukushi intended, and ultimately makes sense when you consider the goal of the stories as a whole / who's writing them.

So why bother with the fantasy of George reuniting with Shannon, or Kanon's ghost guiding Jessica to safety?

edited 12th Nov '12 9:36:44 PM by Oroboro

So you mean Shannon was "killed" in the same way Kanon was "killed" in the second game, with Beatrice taking her role from that point? I hadn't tried that angle, but now that you say it…

Stumbled on JOOJI's image song[1], man, really starting to hate that guy. Don't think there's a full translation, but lyrics include gems like:

edited 14th Nov '12 10:12:30 PM by Oroboro

Ha. Seriously?

Keep it classy, George, keep it classy.

Wait, Umineko characters have character songs? Was this when the anime came out or something? But that doesn't make sense - you don't really get to see that side of JOOOOJI until Chiru.

Ah, I found a full translation of the song. Complete with Ryukishi07 pictures. George Culprit Theory: The Musical, eh?

Err, actually, you see that side of him very early, what with all the lines like "it's not a request, it's an order" or "her feelings were mine to play with as I wished"… and there is the test in Episode 4…

But geez, an evil laugh to top it… >___<

edited 17th Nov '12 1:04:21 PM by Lyendith

I can't say I really caught it my first time watching the anime. But then again, I am (Or was) pretty oblivious to those kind of things. Wasn't till I had it pointed out to me later. (Can say this for a lot of things in Umineko really.)

Of course, I also spent most of my first anime viewing laughing at all the Narm and not taking it very seriously. It was enough to make me want to check the VN, so that was a plus.

Hum, actually I still haven't really watched the anime save from a few episodes (the last ones mostly), maybe it's less obvious… if it's like Higurashi I suppose it skips quite a lot of details…

edited 15th Nov '12 1:46:55 PM by Lyendith

That's a bit of an understatement, yeah.

Although by far the worst part is that it just straight up ends with Beatrice going "Who am I?" and that's it, bam. Done with the series, no second season. (Lesbian witches are briefly shown afterwords, but they don't even include the clarifying red truths, just a Hand Wave of "I could've totally dismantled Battler's argument if I wanted to.")

Edit: Stumbled across this interesting doujin (OF the SFW variety, no worries) featuring Shannon and Yasu having fun, Beatrice reminiscing and trying not to let Battler know, and the cycle of pain amongst the Ushiromiya adults as kids. [1]

edited 15th Nov '12 11:45:10 PM by Oroboro

I can understand though… if the first saison was already a Compressed Adaptation, that would be even worse for Chiru, unless they make it a 40 episode season. And just animating the climax of Episode 8 would probably blow up the budget >__<

The dōjin captures the mood pretty well, although Eva is a bit… small here. I know Rudolf is supposed to end up tall like Battler, but he's a teenager at that time. Anyway, that sure is a healthy and lovely environment to grow up in. If "my dog ate my homework" doesn't work, try "my sister burned my homework, just 'cause".

I 'm pursuing Episode 3… I'll brainstorm later, cause the only thing I can remember now is Beato's cleavage when she stands against EB and the Chiesters… nice job, Alchemist, nice job.

edited 17th Nov '12 1:48:58 PM by Lyendith

The Dv Ds also sold hilariously poorly. (I think less than a hundred copies? I can't remember where or when I heard this, but)

I can't believe the anime got licensed.

by NIS.It makes you think why didn't they go over to the games,since localizing games are their primary specialty.Sure bringing the original PC version is a suicide,since it has been completely fan-translated with even Ryukishi07 showing full support(hell,witch-hunt is actually working with him now to translate Rose Gun Days.)but bringing the console ports would be nice(especially the PSP version since VN styled games have been localized before like Hakuoki and Corpse Party and apparently they did fine in sales.)

edited 18th Nov '12 4:59:42 AM by johnnysasaki

A hundred copies? Seriously? That would be something of a record. It can't be that bad.

For those interested, there is a "which character are you?" quizz here. That's silly but I like doing those for some reason. >__<

And I'm… Bernkastel. Ouch. I thought I was closer to Ange… well, by changing a few choices I end up on Ange, and it's my description alright.

edited 18th Nov '12 9:43:40 AM by Lyendith