When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

So the opening video for Rose Guns Days was uploaded. [1]

I am so excited for this. Seems like the release date is supposed to be summer 2012, probably at the next comiket? I sure hope Witch Hunt decides to translate this, and as fast as they can!

And is it just me, or did the guy who kinda looks like Battler have two girls on his arm who kinda look like Lambdadelta and Bernkastel on his arms?

Didn't Witch Hunt already help with the English background texts?

Anyway, I think I've seen an opening like that somewhere...

Lol, Lambda doesn't have boobs.

In all seriousness, kind of. Though the one girl looks more like Beatrice than Lambda

So the person stuck in a room is really reminding me of Fourteen Oh Eight. Obviously, the answer is to set the witch on fire.

Also, all I can think about when I hear the name Furfur is Farfour the jihadist Mickey Mouse. Which is just wrong.

More to the point, my apathy from supernatural overload is continuing. I just want them to get to the point, already. (Although I'm still not sure I get the furniture thing — if Shannon and Kanon decide not to believe in magic, wouldn't that free them from having to compete with each other? Sure, people like Eva or Natsuhi might get mad, but so what?)

edited 10th Jul '12 7:36:55 AM by BokhuraBurnes

Good question. Try turning the chessboard around. Battler's the one telling the story now, right? So why is his narrative focused on these things? What did he figure out at the end of EP 5 that caused such a drastic change?

Finally read Our Confessions yesterday. A very good read BTW. Something I find interesting about it is how Dlanor talks about a hidden third story that only 1 in 1000 will be able to find. Perhaps this is evidence as to the true nature of the Shkannontrice theory.

Note: I'm aware that its written with a certain cuplrit in mind, but based on the stuff Ryukishi has been saying about finding the truth for yourself, I disagree with the common belief as to why.

Our Confessions is a guide, not an absolute answer book. If it were the later, it would run contradictory to everything the author has been saying about Umineko.

What I got out of it was that we are supposed to be finding the hidden truth, and through that, the fatal flaws of the 2nd truth. I managed to find three, all of them purely from a tactical perspective.

The Shkannontrice theory is a gold truth as opposed to a red truth. The hidden 3rd story is in fact, the red truth we're supposed to be finding

I believe that the notion of gold truth may have been foreshadowed as early as episode 4 with Angi's commentary near the end, further foreshadowed in episode 5 with Dlanor's tea conversation about candy, embellisment, and the like, and outright stated in episode 6.

One of the things that has been bothering me was the notion that somehow we are being trolled. I think I may have discovered exactly how, and it is wonderous.

Ryukishi has pulled a truly magnificant Bat Man Gambit on his fans. This gambit works by screwing with our heads based on the assumed definition of love.

The common assumption is the definition of love as romantic love. I believe Umineko is more complicated than that, being about The Four Loves. To demonstrate this, I will be looking at the scene with Shannon and Kanon in episode 6 as I believe its really telling.

Shannon and Kanon deeply love each other, in the sense of Storge love.

What I got out of that discussion was the deep sadness in Kanon's heart at the notion of his "big sis"/best friend leaving him and all the loneliness that would bring. Shannon was trying to bring him and Jessica together in part to alleviate that sadness. There was a genuine sense that both of them wanted each other to be happy. I felt that the competiotion was more mutualistic in nature, being more like a race to the finish line than a full blown love war. If the Shkannon theory is correct, then it would be impossible for both to be happy as the logical conclusion is that each persona would be trying to destroy the happiness of the other personas. Runs conflict to the inherently selfless tone that talk was taking, don't you think. Ah, Deconstruction, how I love thine ability to act as a pair of ruthless "Jaws of Life" that forcibly shear open the hull that veils the truth, callously toss the shards aside, and expose things for what they really are. Truly magical. ;) (Yes that was supposed to be a round of dark humor in that comment.)

This brings me to what I believe a body incapable of love truly means.

"A body incapable of love is a double edged metaphor that can either mean unable to love literately, or symbolically believes themselves to be unworthy of love. The love that it is unworthy of is not nessecarily restricted to Eros. I believe this theory fits with the intrsinic nature of Umineko being built upon metaphors with double meanings. Depending on which side you slide down the edge, you go to either the red truth or an equally believable/beautiful gold truth.

Either way, The body incapable of love is a critical hint as to the indentity of "Beatrice", who regardless of who it is, I believe is an alternate persona of someone suffering from immense emotional pain because their life lacks love. Is their pain from an inablity to express Eros, or is it the pain of lacking ALL FOUR forms of love. Regardless of the answer, it is a very tragic take on the love narrative which makes whoever "Beatrice" is a persona of Not So Different when you think about it. I do believe that whoever it is, it doesn't change anything regarding Battler's discovery in episode 5 as it still pertains to the love narrative.

One other thing that's been really bugging me. Featherine's exposision in episode 6 said something about Beatrice being very obsessed with "the rules". Assuming the murders are based on "the rules of the Witch's Epitaph" taken literately, this becomes an issue in episodes 3 and 5. With the epitaph being solved in those two episodes, if Shkannontrice is the culprit, wouldn't that mean she's essentially breaking her own rules?

edited 13th Jul '12 6:45:56 PM by magnum12

In regards to the last paragraph, also think about the nature of the games in EP 3 and 5. Hmm, should I spoier tag EP 3 stuff? Eh, I'll spoiler it, just in case. In EP 3, Eva found the gold, and then Eva-Beatrice took control of the game board (for the most part). This could symbolize the game board being taken out of the hands of the culprit (whoever anyone believes that is) and being taken over by a second party, kind of like the EP 7 tea party. In EP 5, the gold is found onscreen again and the standard fair still occurs. However, even though EP 5 features Beatrice as the part of the mastermind, this is a Piece!Beatrice controlled by Lambda—who is the game master instead of Beatrice—and doesn't necessarily act how culprit!Beato would. By this I mean, as shown in EP 8 by piece!Battler acting the part of an accomplice, a piece has to act in character, and can only do things the actual person can do. However, the probability of a piece's actions coinciding with the human's vary among actions. So really, EP 5 doesn't break the rules because Beatrice isn't controlling the game as a whole. EP 5 is acting on its own set of rules.

That's all I really have time to discuss now because I have to go to the movies (seeing Brave!), but I'll post what I think of your entire post later :)

edited 13th Jul '12 10:16:14 AM by Solachinx

Generally stuff from episdoes 1-3 doesn't have to have spoilers. The notion that someone has hijacked the game, thus the murders after the discovery of the gold....supports my idea that the "Beatrice" that is supposed to be the prime culprit in the episodes is innocent in games where the gold is found. The thing that's bugging me is that since "Beatrice" (defined as the culprit) is supposed to be the same person in each of the first four games (I know the next four games are very different in nature), there is a contradiction if "Beatrice" is still the same person killing people.

Something else that interests me is how a certain two people die for real early in episodes where the gold is found. Potential clue as to an indentity for "Beatrice". In addition to this, one of those people was getting pissed off when the "rules of the epitaph symbolically" were not being followed in episode 5.

More of an interesting side note, but I find it interesting that "Beatrice" which includes Island Beatrice is significantly taller than Shannon. We're talking half a head here, which by calculating the average height of a human head and assuming a 10% negative deviation would be a differance of about 4 inches. There is however someone that is essentially the same height as this "Beatrice" with any differences easily being accounted for by the minor elevation of a high heel shoe or similar garnment.

Edit: Is it just me, or is there quite a lot of trolly characters in Ryukishi's works. We have at the lightest end of the scale Mion Sonozaki, who's low grade trollish antics always entertain, and Bernkastel at the absolute dark end whose Troll behaviour is never funny. Don't know where to place Lambadelta and Beatrice on that scale, though I've found the former's antics to be the most amusing of the witches and I haven't made my mind on whether Featherine can be considered a Troll or not. Considering that Umineko has the nick name "Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls" I'm not surprised. Having only finished the 2nd part of Higanbana, I don't have enough info to make a conclusion on if that series has any Trolls in it or not.

edited 13th Jul '12 7:19:01 PM by magnum12

Yeah, I agree as well that that Beatrice is innocent in games where the gold was discovered. Why I believe that is a bit lengthy. However, I don't remember a point in the Question Arcs during which Beatrice relinquished control and then went back on her word. Granted, it's been a while since I've played the Question Arcs. In EP 3, weren't all the murders after the first twilight (initiated at least) by Eva-Beatrice?

And as you said in your post, to me, any height difference can be accounted for by having the "taller" individual wear heels, which Beatrice does where (in the anime and Alchemist VN, so it's technically not canon, but hey, both were saw over by Ryu, and the anime had the lion statues.

Since I haven't read Our Confessions, it turns out there's a lot less that I can comment on than I thought :/ There are a few things though.

I do believe that Ryukishi uses the term "love" very loosely and in a way that coincides with the four Greek loves. Without understanding all love, love cannot be seen between: Maria and Rosa (Storge on Rosa's end, Agape and Storge on Maria's); The Siblings (Storge); Eva and Ange (Storge and maybe even Agape on Eva's end). I'd even say that individual loves or pairs of loves are focused on in each episode, and then EP 8 brings all four to a front. (It could also be a translation issue)

I also agree with you on the body incapable of love framed such as that. I do believe that is one half of the "Beatrice" complex that the culprit has developed. The other half I believe is something to do with their body in terms of physicality versus mentality. Battler's shock and regret when he learns the truth to me is partly due to him sympathizing with that condition means.

PS: Don't forget that Shion and Takano were also pretty big trolls in Higurashi. Oh, which reminds me, I got the complete Maekashi-hen in manga; I love it so far. I have to order in Tsumihoroboshi-hen though because my Barnes and Nobles stopped restocking the Higurashi manga >:Y

Yes, all the murders after the first twilight in episode 3 were infact represented by Eva-Beatrice. To me, Eva-Beatrice is yet another double edged metaphor. One edge is the in-verse theory that Eva is the killer in episode 3 and the other edge is that there are actually two culprits, one of which doesn't care at all about "the rules". It's also odd that in games where Beatrice is not the GM or relinquishes GM status (episode 3), Maria tends to die earlier.

Note: While Eva is certainly NOT the culprit in episode 3, I do however think that she actually DOES kill people in that episode. Motive: Vigilantism influenced at misdirected Mama Bear (this does NOT have to be biologically related children) instincts gone to hell. This theory is supported by Ryukishi's opinion on vigilante action (he does not approve of it and in fact it NEVER turns out well when its done) and by Will's solution refering to the immutable blade which explains how she did it.

I'm personally inclined to disbelieve the physical aspect of the "body incapable of love". However, I do believe that it is infact an aspect of the double-edged metaphors that seem to be common place in Umineko. Unless....that statement is actually a reference to a statement made in episode 4 about no man wanting someone with a child made by another man. Okay, this a VERY wild theory, one that I'm inclined against, but given the general cultural stigma against single mothers, this is possibly a valid interpretation of "being unable to love physically" if used as a metaphor. Given certain theories this brings me to an important point also in episode 6.

During the extremely long discussion between George and Shannon, they talk about having children. Shannon says something about wanting at least three with one boy and one girl. The manga shortens this by depicting a panel with a visibly pregnant Shannon. If Shannon is infact Yasu and indeed has a "body incapable of love physically" then this would be the point at which she would have to face her reality and come clean to George about this very important matter. I got the feeling however, that Shannon was not lying in that discussion.

As for the height analogy, I don't think high heel shoes can really account for the difference. The only way I can think of where it could actually account for the 4-4.5 inch difference is if Beatrice is wearing stilettos (extremely impractical for the purposes of mobility and health BTW), which I'm pretty certain is not the case. The average elevation provided by a high heel shoe is 2-2.5 inches, well below the 4-4.5 inch difference seen. However, this difference is within statistical normalicy when comparing Beatrice and Rosa.

Regarding Will's solutions in episode 7. I'm inclined to believe that they are intentionally worded to be double edged metaphors.

Something else I've been thinking about lately. Who is Bernkastel talking to in the episode 1 tea party. Who are the witches with naive dreams Lambdadelta refers to in the episode 7 tea party? Who is Bernkastel talking to when she makes her dark promise in episode 7? All of these questions lead me to a blue truth regarding the nature of the meta world.

The Meta World is akin to a witch's inner sanctum where all of the game boards play out. Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are talking to us, the readers in a form of Leaning on the Fourth Wall. The readers are depicted inverse much like Featherine as "Theater Going Witches", being passive participates trying to solve the mystery. This explanation is allowed under Knox's 9th.

edited 14th Jul '12 7:26:57 PM by magnum12

Ok, the characters here need to read up on The Four Loves. I've always maintained that redemption by love will be a part of solving the mystery, but I was thinking more of agape (rather than just eros).

More to the point, I think it's significant that Battler's most recent statement (EVERYONE is in one of the two rooms) didn't seem to include Erika. In fact, I'm wondering if this is part of some great plan - she refuses to make the detective's proclaimation, which means that Knox's rules don't apply and she can be considered a suspect for the murders (my general grumblings about the lack of a motive or how a young girl could kill a woman proficient in martial arts notwithstanding). I suspect this will come into play later on, although I don't know which side it will benefit!

On the other hand, I don't like this whole 'logical contradiction' thing. One of the best parts of the early (first three) runs was the tension between mundane and magical means — was there some clever method by which the murders could have been committed under the standard laws of physics, or could only magic provide an explanation? Now, with these new laws that magic can only work if the act could have been committed non-magically, this tension falls apart — if there really is a perfect closed room murder, then everything falls apart logically and the magic side loses? Doesn't seem fair to the magic side (who can now only win if the mundane side is lazy), and after all, there is no logical contradiction to the use of magic — even if that challenges our understanding of reality as we know it. This seems to lower the stakes in the story, something I dislike from a narrative standpoint.

On the other hand, this could just be an aspect of the RULES as they are in play right now, and if there's a way to get Bernkastel away from the controls, things might go back to how they were before. I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Since you're that far now, it should not surprise you that this is, indeed, about the rules. Also, there's some serious Fridge Brilliance to this (remember what is actually at stake here!) - you'll see at the end of the episode.

edited 15th Jul '12 1:01:04 AM by jkbeta

So yeah, turns out I completely called the idea of Erika not wanting to be the detective so she could be the murderer.

Of course, never mind the question of how she could have killed multiple people bigger than her (one of whom knows martial arts, and two of whom were in the same room together), or what her in-universe motive would have been for doing so. At this point, I'm beginning to feel that everything outside of the metaworld is just kind of irrelevant.

They were all pretending to be dead when Erika showed up, so it was an easy coup de grace. Other than that, I can assure you that it all has a point and comes together in the end. But it's also true that the meta(and the meta-meta) is more important than the gameboard narrative this time around.

EP 1-4 are the mystery, constructed by the witch, which you've been challenged to solve. Ep 5-8 are kind of like an incredibly long denouement, each it's own separate story with a beginning, middle, and end, but each giving new information and peeling back the layers to find the truth, even if it's still not obvious or stated outright.

Ask some questions, and try to think about why the story is going the direction it is. After all, Battler is telling it this time around.

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou, Will! Finally someone seems to be approaching the murders the way I am, focusing on alibis and motives rather than only looking at the howdunnit and whodunnit parts. Much more satisfying — and I appreciated the meta-callout by the story as well.

Also, calling it now — Lion is Natsuhi's adopted child (who somehow managed to survive in this iteration).

PS: I never gave my thoughts on the end of the last episode and the revelations therein. Obviously, there's some connection between Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice. I feel like we're supposed to believe that they're the same person, or something like that, but I don't buy that, mainly because they don't look at all alike. I find it impossible to accept that George and Jessica would have been fooled by this for long. What the nature of the connection is, however, is beyond me for now. And the 17 people thing — maybe Erika got taken out of existence once Bernkastel had no use for her piece. (Please? We can only hope! She was highly annoying.)

Instead, I'll choose to point out that Battler said that he wanted a girl 'like Jessica'. My crack Battler/Jessica ship has some life yet...

Well, fooling George is one thing. He probably doesn't see Kanon much and even when he does he probably just sort of completely overlooks him.

I don't see how Jessica could be fooled into thinking Kanon and Shannon are different people. Not that I'm saying that theory is wrong, it just wouldn't make sense to me whether it was true or not.

Wait. You're on Episode 7, meaning the arc that answers tons and tons of questions. I should be able to confirm or deny that theory now shouldn't I?

EP 7's Tea Party is very memorable.

Simple explanation on that 17 people thing. Time line based counterfactual. Battler is refering to how Erika is dead in most time lines. He would know this due to his experiences on the meta world. I've also been looking at this in terms of motive since it is an effective tool as to finding out the whodunnit.

If one can find a strong motive behind it all, then a lack of motive can be used to rule out suspects, unless the suspect is some crazed KILL MAIM BURN psychopath.

Greed on its own is a very weak motive. One that is likely to dissapate should circumstances change. This is more true for an accomplice.

Large numbers of accomplices are ultimately detremenental to a plot for multiple reasons. 1. Each additional accomplice is an extra variable (more variables is a bad thing as it increases the amount of things that can go wrong). Extra accommplices can place the culprit in a posistion of weakness rather than a posistion of strength. This reason is especially true since the accomplice is the most risky variable.

Convoluted plots with loads of variables are doomed to fail because there are so many things that can go wrong. The most effective plots are the ones with the least variables.

Looking at this blue truth barrage just made me realize something. That Wolf Sheep puzzle in episode 2 may have been a potential Chekhov's Lecture. It has two meanings. 1. Isolate and kill as directly discussed. 2. A metaphor about posistions of strength/weakness and control. The wolf is in a posistion of weakness when out numbered by the sheep, who can be interpreted as being either innocents or controlled accomplices.

IIRC, episode 7 is heavily in the magical perspective. Many of the big reveals should be interpreted as a double-edged metaphor (depending on interpretation can have multiple meanings) much like how this series seems to heavily revolve around this concept.

edited 21st Jul '12 8:39:34 PM by magnum12

While you're certainly free to come up with your own theories and interpret things however you want, it might be better if you hold off on confusing the guy who's still reading through it all for the first time.

Yes please! I just started episode 7, so don't want to know anything about the tea party for a while yet... Nice to know that lots and lots of things will be answered in the episode, though.

I saw the atonement arc of Higurashi on sale in the manga section of a local bookstore.

I had 28 dollars on hand. There were 4 books in the arc.

I said f*ck it buying it. Bought it. Cost 27 dollars and something cents. Volumes of Higurashi are so rare and Atonement is my favourite arc.

Looking back at the first 4 episodes has made me think more deeply about some of the scenes contained. I believe they actually make more sense and have a considerably deeper meaning if one believes that "Beatrice" is an alternate persona of Rosa, aka the "Rosatrice Theory".

Rosa's banquet, episode 2: I interpret this scene as a form of symbolic admonishment of the "Rosa" persona by the "Beatrice" persona for her guilt in the murders. The items in the banquet represent all of the resentment inside her "heart without love", with the last item on the menu representing the one who Rosa has hurt the most. Being When They Cry, of course this scene has to be loaded with Nightmare Fuel well over 9000. When one realizes that Rosa's life lacks love, which also includes an extensive amount of self loathing, this is Fridge Brilliance.

Second Twilight. episode 3: Perhaps the regret over not being able to keep her promise to take Maria to the golden land represents something different. The reason being that 1. the mass murder plot (the game board) has been hijacked (by one with no concern for the rules of the epitaph)/ undermined (because she must stop because the gold has been found). 2. That promise is impossible because the one carrying out the Golden Land Plot is dead.

Maria's Revenge: Much like the Banquet above, I think this represents a Mama Bear grade admonishment by the "Beatrice" persona. This time for cruel acts that went beyond crossing the line, also calling her out for every bit of bad parenting the "Rosa" persona has ever done, going as far as to join in Maria's lashing out. The reason why Beatrice can't bring Sakturo back becomes much sadder. Since Rosa denied him, Beatrice is unable to revive him because they are two personas of the same person. Beatrice and Maria's comment about Maria being empty and broken is all the more tragic since Maria's emotionally at the point of return with scars in her heart that will never truly heal and its all her fault.

Come to think of it, many of Beatrice's interactions with Maria come after some form of abuse from Rosa. Assuming the "Rosatrice" Theory and Rosa most certainly having Split Personality Disorder, these interactions make more sense. Maria's comments about a "white witch" and a "black witch" become more poignant under that context.

edited 22nd Jul '12 8:15:36 PM by magnum12

SPOILERS FOR Umineko EP 8

You know, people complain about Umineko's ending being incredibly unhealthy what with the glorification of escapism and believing in your own truth and what not, but then somebody here mentioned BT's death and it struck me that the ending makes complete sense from the perspective of somebody who's traumatized and trying to cope with the death of his best friend and colleague who never got to read the end of the series that Ryukishi07 specifically wrote for him. I personally think people who believe in an afterlife are delusional, but if it helps them cope with life better, who am I to judge? I think the same goes with Ryukishi07 here - the entirety of Chiru strikes me as the work of somebody who's longing to believe in happy endings and that death is not the end and that love will triumph in the end no matter how tragic things end up being and your own personal truth that your friend lives on in your heart is the golden truth and nobody can take that away from you... and that makes the ending doubly sad, IMHO.

I know BT died sometime around EP 5, but still. You don't get over a BFF's death that easily, I think.

It was sometime during the making of EP 5 IIRC. That explanation causes the ending make more sense actually.

Thinking about things some more, I don't really buy the "heavy object explanation" regarding episode 2. Note: I am NOT saying its a lie. Rather, its more akin to chafe that baits the reader into going for the gold truth rather than the red truth. This opinion is supported by Word of God regarding never revealing the truth and by the whole 3rd story that only 1 in 1000 will decipher, which is the red truth of the incident. Reasons as to my disbelief.

1. The trajectory of the shot is way too perfect for it to have been anything but a close range shot. 2. Close range shot + VERY low penetration of the wound as evident by the depth of the stake in Shannon's head. A shot at such a range should have gotten much greater penetration, with a very nasty exit wound extremely likely. 3. Contradiciton with another supposed suicide in episode 4. If the Shkannontrice Theory is to be believed, then Shannon killed herself with a close range shot. This shot has a very clear exit wound, implying full penetration of the round. Why is a close range shot doing this in episode 4 yet the same shot is extremely shallow in episode 2. This of course giving the generous assumption that the weapon used both times is a form of pistol.

Edit: Found some news out last night. Umineko is officially being localized. Nis America has got the license and will be releasing the anime state side in December (sub only though). There's also been lots of demand for a US releasal of the visual novels as of late.

edited 31st Jul '12 2:02:00 PM by magnum12

Ooh, a discussion thread. My personal thoughts on Umineko... well, I loved EP 8 myself, never quite understood what all the fuss was about. Then again, I neither wanted nor expected to be given any answers, so that's probably why. I like how the ending keeps it ambiguous whether or not magic exists; that way either interpretation is equally valid and each person can decide their own truth. I prefer the fantasy interpretation myself, but that's just because I'm a sucker for a happy ending, I suppose.

I never liked the Tohya created everything ending theory, but the more I hear it the harder it gets to deny. I really don't want to believe that theory, but it gets difficult when it seems to be the commonly accepted interpretation. Kind of a downer.

@Anarchy: I completely agree that it makes everything makes much more sense. And as someone who's been there, frankly, I can see where Ryukishi is coming from with it.