What/s defined as an RPG game?

Simplest, broadest definition possible for OP:

Any game where characters advance and gain in performance through the completion of tasks in the game world.

As such, Fallout 3, a game with fast paced FPS action combat, is an RPG because of its skills and levels system.

^^ Why wouldn't Okami be considered an RPG?

I agree that the term "RPG" denotes two things: story development and character building.

For a game to be considered an RPG, in my book, emphasis would need to be placed upon both of these elements over all other aspects of the game. You ask yourself, what is the goal of the game? A game like Ninja Gaiden possesses semblances of both of these things, but they can be considered NOT to be the goal. The story is inconsequential, and character-building serves only as a means to get from mission start to mission end. In a game like Oblivion, however, character building can be seen as its own rewards. Not every skill is combat-oriented, and some do not help with the apparent mission at hand. The story in Oblivion is still also more consequential, because you'll have to know at least some of it to continue (you have to interact with NPCs and gather information to progress).

edited 7th Nov '10 9:50:23 AM by KingZeal

RP Gs are a genre of games, games are defined by their gameplay mechanics otherwise they wouldn't be games. For example the defining mechanic between a TPS and FPS is the camera angle which affects the gameplay heavily, enough to split it off from the other. As such RP Gs have certain mechanics too, the reason why it's STATS STATS STATS is because that's a mechanic, most RP Gs derive from D&D and the like so most mechanics are based off them, most have already been listed (A numerical system of progression, Being able to choose "armor" and "weapons", Passive "boosts" system which affect combat i.e. +1 from helmet or STR Buff in combat, and an advanced system of combat).

Now yes magic is not in every game but "magic" in a form is required as in an advanced system of combat to be used over the standard attack or attacks the player is given, it may not be magic per say but it can manifest as points for special attacks or points for your more powerful weapons etc. The title of RPG is like a "mouse", you could either be talking about your computer mouse or a mouse that's an animal, RPG says "Role-Playing" but it is not a required trait of the genre, it is a trait found repeatedly throughout games but it is not required because it is not a gameplay mechanic, things like story and choice can supplement a game and push "average" to "great" but they are not required because if you took it out you would still be able to play the game, you probably wouldn't enjoy it but you would still be able too hence why "story, choice, and role playing" are not required traits.

Technically, Command And Conquer 4 would sorta count as an RTS-RPG hybrid, if only because of the Experience Points system that limits your Tech Tree. Also, there's some element of unit stats, because of things like the Armor system and the Weapon types (which sound good on paper until you find out that laser beams cannot slice up infantry as easily as tanks), and apparent "buffs" like Dodge, Range, Accuracy, Damage, etc.

edited 7th Nov '10 10:15:54 AM by RocketDude

Well I'm not versed in C&C so I can't pass judgment however can you choose weapon and armor types or are they permanently set? Are buffs applied by you or are they given to certain units? While it may not be a RTS-RPG it most certainly sounds a RTS with RPG elements which is how most games do it today.

There are really two defenitions of an RPG: the technical definition and the current definition.

Technical: A game where you do indeed play a role. Usually heavy on character choice.

Current: What many people think of an RPG as. I would indeed describe it as STATS STATS STATS. It may include levels, or just gathering new equipment or skills.

But the roleplaying is mediated and restricted through statistical abstraction of characters' abilities, that's what makes it an actual game rather than just playing make-believe (and heads off anymost “I do X” “Nu uh!” “Uh huh!” arguments.)

I haven't played Okami, but if it's anything like Zelda or BG&E then the character advancement basically amounts to being given precanned powerups in prescripted ways. In other words, about like picking up a gun in Doom.

@Tree: Maybe you should read up on it.

Start with the Range, Accuracy, and/or Speed Boost upgrades or the Sheppard Tank article.

edited 7th Nov '10 11:47:25 AM by RocketDude

Mattonymy: Well, you can say its not a RPG because the stats never go anywhere. At the best they do a minor spikeup. I think the best example of the difference would be to look at Diablo 2 and building a sorcerer. You can for the kicks make a melee sorcer whos main skill is enchant instead of spamming those glorious Ao E icebolts along with high HP and strenght instead of 2 tons of mana. I never played Okami, but I assume there is never really a way to build a completely different character with the point system, its more like powerups that is attained.

Zelda is not a RPG either, it just allows a basic sandbox element: The way the levels(as in tempel 1 then temple 2) must be done is not set in the stone.

WORLD Tree: Fallout uses GURPS, well, Dn D is popular, and since its popular the chance of using a Dn D system in a game increases.

Deathonabun: Would you claim Fate/Stay Night are a RPG? Nisual novels sort of intrigues me, as they are a really elegant way of telling a story, without the need of complex character direction(you just get a choice here and there instead).

You bring up an interesting point. Yes, by a completely technical definition, a Visual Novel would be a RPG.

Of course, one could argue that a Visual Novel is not actually a game, but closer to a Choose Your Own Adventure Book, and could therefore not be called a role-playing game.

edited 7th Nov '10 1:07:20 PM by Deathonabun

Oh good, this question.

The definition I personally like was one I saw in another forum in a thread about this topic a couple of years ago, and it went something like this:

As far as video games go, an RPG is a game where the numerical abstractions representing the qualities of characters and objects are visible to, and to some extent manipulable by, the player.

All this talk of numerical abstraction just makes me think of GTA, where the more often you use the sprint button, the longer you could sprint for. Was GTA an RPG? Probably not.

^ No, it makes it a Sandbox shooter/racing game with some RPG elements. Just as Command and Conquer: Tiberian Twilight is a strategy game with some RPG elements.

If the game has "STATS, STATS, STATS" as its core and main gameplay mechanics than it is a RPG. If it has it as one of the gameplay elements, while the actual core mechanics is something else, than it has RPG elements.

I dont think that story elements or structure can be used to define a game. Sure, it can be mark of a great RPG, but in the end, there is nothing that prevents FPS or a strategy game to have branching plot line, story consequences for player actions, or even subquests (well, except for most game developers who think that FPS and an engaging story are mutually exclusive, but that is another can of worms to open)

edited 7th Nov '10 2:56:22 PM by Drakovicz

I completely agree that for an RPG to be an RPG, its main mechanic must be player-influenced number crunching.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that yeah, the story and player character don't really define an RPG, just like they don't define any game. Games are about mechanics. The whole medium of gaming is best suited at providing an interactive experience, and it just so happens that the majority of devs decide to use this experience to tell a story.

The problem, and source of this debate, is that "role play game" is kind of holdover name from the closest, non-digital analogue, and such a name makes people think of acting rather than playing.

Off topic as all hell but where is that avatar from?

What about RPGs where numbers aren't crunched at all? Like Mass Effect?

EDIT: For one thing, there are games which involve number crunching and stat-building for no other reason than bragging rights (following the Farm Ville suit) there are games in the genre which minimize or lack it entirely.

edited 7th Nov '10 3:53:36 PM by KingZeal

Then those games aren't RP Gs, Mass Effect is an TPS with RPG elements.

Mass Effect is a hybrid.

@ Hashil: It is a fan art of a character from Touhou (Patchoulli to be precise) as an antrophomorphic lizard.

@ King Zeal: I would consider Mass Effect to be TPS/RPG hybrid. The number crunching in character optimizations (level-ups, skills, inventory, mods, ammo...) is still too prominent to gameplay to be considered a secondary mechanics, but the combat is almost purely a shooter. Mass Effect 2 would be TPS with RPG elements, as they largely simplified the number crunching.

edited 7th Nov '10 4:45:01 PM by Drakovicz

I dunno about all that. Mass Effect may lack number crunching, but it more than makes up for it in exploration, worldbuilding, storytelling, and characterization. It surpasses even many traditional RPGs in this respect.

I simply don't agree with considering a game an "RPG" versus "A ___ with RPG elements" based simply on number crunching. There are ways to build characters besides arbitrary stats (equipment, skills) and every game is going to have a numerical value for any effect. (Bullets and Powers in Mass Effect do set values of damage, for example).

According to what you guys replied with, if a game is all stats and no progression, then it's not an RPG. If it's all progression and no stats, it's not an RPG. But if it's some stats and some progression, it's a "hybrid".

edited 7th Nov '10 9:52:44 PM by KingZeal

What about some Turn-Based Strategy games like, say, Fire Emblem?

An RPG is a game in which you have a chance to define your character in some way. It doesen't *have* to mean a nonlinear plot or progression structure, it just means that you can somehow define your character.

The most basic form of role-playing I can think if is those But Thou Must! situations where your options all boil down to the same thing but with slightly different wordings. That's BAD RP-ing, but it's the bare minimum of what counts.

How about Freedom Force? I don't think it is an RPG but many reviewers called it such.

Numbers are crunched in Mass Effect. You can control your accuracy with the mouse, but the computer handles damage calculation from there based on mods to your gun, your stats, the enemy's type, etc. Then there's the "number crunching" of Paragon and Renegade checks. Sure it's just doing a simple comparison, but you still need to raise those stats to be able to coerce someone.

@ King Zeal:,Yes, but world-building, exploration, storytelling or characters do not define RPG. STALKER builds a fascinating world and lets you freely explore it, but it is undoubtedly a FPS. Starcraft offers gripping storytelling and interesting characters but it is pure RTS. Those things are "merely" sings of good (or at least story-intensive) game.

About 2nd part of your post: That depends entirely on your definition of "number crunching". I consider skills, equipment, perks, enchantments, buffs, talents, whatever, to be an important part of the whole "number crunching" or "STATS, STATS, STATS" package.

@Spell Blade: Turn-based strategy games are hard to distinguish from RP Gs, especially if they are squad based (like X-Com, Gorky 17, or Fire Emblem). To be honest I am unable to come with different enough definitions of the two, without them being absurdly narrow. I guess you could call those indistinguishable Turn-based games "tactical RP Gs" but that is a bit of a cop-out.