A Song Of Ice And Fire

1) Check the map of Westeros. The Lannisters were much closer.

2) The lords whose lands abut the coast of the Sunset Sea all keep a war galley or three about for coastal defense, and of course those shores are home to scads of fishing boats as well. The Lannisters have a larger and much grander fleet, but we're still only talking about twenty to thirty ships, perhaps. To fight a major battle, they would call the ships of their various bannermen, just as Stannis summoned the lords of the narrow sea for the battle on the Blackwater.

For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen — cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck.

The Redwyne Fleet is stronger, but the Lannister Fleet was still significant. That's why they destroyed it.

3) Redwyne ships did participate in the Battle of Fair Isle.

4) No. It was brilliant. It was planned by Euron, the smartest of the Greyjoys and gave the Greyjoys the breathing space needed to invade the Riverlands (which they lost), before the Redwyne and Baratheons Fleets could come and face the Greyjoy Fleet.

5) You aren't realizing the logistical difficulties of attacking the Arbor and taking the Shield Islands is only of interest if the Iron Born were going to invade the Reach... by far the strongest of the 7 Kingdoms. In addition to this, Invading the Reach while bypassing the Lannister Fleet leaves an enemy in their rear.

6) How did Tywin lose repeatedly to a smaller army like Robb? The short answer is he never did. Again, tactics win battles and strategy wins wars. Strategic victories are more important that victories in battle especially among the higher ranks. Robb never actually faced Tywin in battle. He faced Twins subordinate commanders. People like Stafford Lannister and Gregor Clegane. He defeated them, but no one says that Tywin beat Robb when he beat Roose Bolton.

7) What was his flaw? I don't understand. Yes. He stayed around Harrenhall so he could respond to Robb or the Baratheon Brothers as needed or with taking prisoners.

8) Robb's plan has serious flaws, but I'm not convinced that it was his plan. I've always thought he Edmure's "failure" to get him to make a marriage alliance of with the Freys.

9) Tyrion got his position from Tywin. In any case, this is proof of Tywins brilliance. There are very few people I'd rank above him in asoiaf. Robert, Stannis and maybe Robb are about it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/115331-tywin-the-commander/

edited 22nd May '16 3:11:58 AM by 940131

I'm going to join my voices with all those who are pointing out that the Greyjoy rebellion was stupid. Balon didn't have a clue what he was doing. If he'd kept his fleet close he might—might mind you—have stood a chance of keeping Robert and co from successfully landing on the Isles, but by sending them out to attack a numerically superior adversary he got himself crushed.

Moreover, Balon doesn't get to whine about how unfair the peace was after the fact. He started a war. He got thousands of people killed. He should be glad he's still breathing. Someone earlier made a comparison to the CSA. That's pretty legit.

Steven Attewell of Race for the Iron Throne made that comparison. You know, Balon is obsessed with Ironborn Pride, the Old Way and they all talk of Greenland aggression while forgetting that they started the war. I mean the Ironborn are incredibly hypocritical and dumb, and change the rules all the damn time. They are a Gang of Hats of No True Scotsman, like Aeron Greyjoy saying that the kingsmoot will resolve succession because Asha, despite being Balon's heir (and the only genuinely positive aspect of his legacy in my view), is not fit. Somehow the fact that Balon wasn't elected either doesn't come into his tiny brain. They are hypocrites and inconsistent, and I think GRRM is having fun at these Horny Vikings or Dated History viking stereotypes.

If I were Balon and wanted to rebel I would think along these lines.\\ 1) Iron Islands needs resources on the mainland. So my grand strategy for my rebellion is to somehow find a way to get that.
2) Middle strategy is find some mainland allies. The Iron Islands are located on the Sunset Sea. The North, Riverlands, Westerlands are out of the question. A bolder man would roll his dice for Dorne as Tywin said. So try Dorne and see if you can get an alliance with Doran, or the Reach with the Tyrells. Both are dicey, Doran as we all know won't back any horse that has no chance to win and the Greyjoys will hardly cause him to stir from the Water Gardens. The Tyrells on the reach, unlikely. So their best idea is 3)
3) Go to Robert and propose a partnership. The Stepstones of the Narrow Sea, take over that territory and colonize it with the support of the Iron Throne. Robert is itching for a war, and he was half-tempted by Xalabar Xho's offer to invade the Summer Islands until his advisers talked him out of it. But the Stepstones is below the coast of Blackwater Bay and the Iron Islanders are not entirely unknown. So the Iron Islanders get some of that land, some alliance and goodwill from the Baratheon regime, and in exchange, Robert being carelessly generous that he is, will offer them land on the West Coast, either at the North, the Riverlands, the Westerlands or the Reach. Most likely it will be the North since Tywin won't allow it, the Reach is too far and inconvenient. Would Ned accept to cede lands to the ironborn to settle them, probably not so there might be issues there but Robert might win him over.

Balon's plan is 1) Attack the 7 Kingdoms, 2) Claim you are a King, 3) Missing Steps, 4) Profit

Tywin is also a dumb hypocrite. He is dumb because he's a hypocrite.

One horrible evil thought occurred to me while remembering that conversation he had with Tyrion where the latter asked him when he'd ever sacrificed his interest in the name of the family, and Tywin said it was when he did not drown infant Tyrion "because you're a Lannister".

That was such a colossal asshole thing to say, it would knock the wind out of anyone. At that moment, I wondered why Tyrion wanted to have anything to do with the man anymore. He should just have left the room, the castle, the kingdom, and never come back.

And then, a thing I just imagined Tyrion could have threatened to do, if he were rutheless enough: threaten to renounce the name 'Lannister' and publically claim himself a bastard. That would involve insulting his mother's virtue, though.

Well Tyrion finally did walk away from the Lannisters by killing his father. And as seen in A Dance with Dragons, it's easy for Tyrion to walk away from the Lannisters then for the Lannisters to leave Tyrion.

Balon is one of those idiots who thinks that what matters is that you rebelled, not whether you achieved anything. He just doesn't have it in him to plan ahead.

@940131- I'm trying to remember since this discussion has gone on for a while, but am I remembering correctly that you were arguing that the decision to take Theon as a ward/hostage was a deliberate dick move by Ned and/Robert? Maybe I'm misremembering but I think someone was arguing about intentions in light of Robert befriending some of his other enemies.

In any event, I don't think Balon's rebellion is comparable to the situation of people who support Aerys. In that case, although some people were loyalists, there was an overall My Country, Right or Wrong ethos of the supporters. Which is to say that they saw a moral obligation to support Aerys but once he was replaced by Robert, they'd support the new regime.

On the other hand, Balon was seeking to break away from the 7 Kingdoms and creating problems in various regions- basically, he was indicating he wouldn't support any King, which is why he was treated more harshly.

Incidentally, there of course were some people who fought for Aerys and were treated more harshly, like Allister Thorne and Jaremy Rykker, but both of them were captured and sentenced by Tywin, not Robert or Ned.

1) How is it hypocritical? Bacon wasn't elected. He inherited his position, because he's a Greyly man. Asha didn't, because she's a woman. It's sexist, but most of Westeros is.

2) The Iron Islands wouldn't find any allies.

3) There are plenty of flaws in your plan, but I'm going to focus on what was brilliant. The Lannister Fleet was very close to the Iron Islands and a threat to their Invasion of the Riverlands. So the Iron Born burned it entirely at Port. As you yourself said, Tywin was humiliated and it gave the Iron Born a breathing space for their Invasion of the Riverlands.

edited 22nd May '16 1:53:46 PM by 940131

1) I'm saying that taking children hostage is by it's very nature a dick move.

2) Balon did support a King. Himself.

"Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle , Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty."

The only people Robert couldn't forgive were Targaryens.

edited 22nd May '16 2:40:24 PM by 940131

Plus taking a ward to ensure good behavior was standard practice in that time period. You would send people off to other friendly nobles for them to be educated and get some worldly experience, the fact that Balon gave them Theon under duress is a moot point because it could have been worse, he could have lost all of his sons at once and let the Iron Islands fall into civil war after he died because Euron's not welcome, Victarion's below Asha in the line of succession, Aeron's a priest and therefore ineligible...

Plus Theon had the option to just walk away from Pyke after his father showed that he was an asshole that didn't welcome him home as a prodigal son, but as a "Dur hur you were given to guys from the mainland under duress so you suck meanwhile we're so much better even though we got our asses kicked and are too stuck-up to admit that we're wrong."

1) I've already shot down that argument. Yeah... taking children hostage is standard practice in their setting. So was marital rape and slavery. They're all still morally reprehensible.

2) It most certainly isn't a moot point. Then was kidnapped. He was taken hostage and held under threat of death. Comparing Theon to Ned and Robert with Jon is complete nonsense, because they weren't hostages. People say Theon was adopted or fostered it wasn't really. Ned and Robert were adopted. Ned and Robert were fosterd. What happened to Theon was quite different. That's why Theon was still with them at 20 when Ned and Robert permanently left the Eyrie at 16. That's why Theon hadn't seen his family in 10 years while Ned and Robert regularly visited Winterfell and Storms End respectively during their time as wards of Jon Arryn. For the record, if Balon had been like Quellon and sent Theon voluntarily as a ward to the Starks I would agree with you. If he had been in the same situation as Ned and Robert, then came back later to take their castle, hold their children hostage and kill a bunch of people I'd be on your side. But Theons fostering wasn't like Jon and Roberts. That's what Robb doesn't understand, but Ned, Catelyn and Theon do.

3) The fact that it could have been worse doesn't mean that Theon is irrelevant. Could he have been treated worse? Absolutely. Sansa could have been treated worse too. Joffrey could have had her flayed. The fact that they could have been treated worse does not mean that they have no reason to be bitter about the time they spent hostages.

4) Why should Theon walk away from his inheritance? Why should Theon walk away from his country and his family? Why wouldn't he want to try and win it back.

Side Note: Quellon seemed to be like a decent man by the standards of the setting. I really want to find out how he ended up raising those 4 asshole kids.

Well when their whole culture is telling them to be an asshole it's rather easy to see how they decided to be asshole a rather than like Quellon.

It's funny I just saw a movie on Lyndon B Johnson where he tells someone that it's time for the South to rejoin the rest of the nation. It reminded me of Quellon.

Well, the Iron Born were never really part of the nation. They were always on the fringe. That's why the kingdom needs a warden of the west.

edited 23rd May '16 4:21:04 PM by 940131

They were part of the Westerosi kingdom.

As World of Ice and Fire show, the Ironborn have had several interactions with greenlanders.The Hoares were rulers of Riverlands and Harrenhal is a Westerosi monument of some kind.

We have Ironborn who became masters, like that guy in service of the Webbers in The Sworn Sword and another in WOIAF who speculates that the Black Stone in Hightower Castle is the same as the one from which the Seastone Chair is made.

Likewise, a Lannister daughter married into the Ironborn rulers too.

x2 Yeah. Officially. That's why I said they were on the fringe. The iron islands do their own thing, attack when they see weakness and exist somewhat autonomously from the rest of the kingdom.

For the most part, they live separately. The Lannister wife was before the Targaryens had even arrived in Westeros.

edited 25th May '16 9:01:51 PM by 940131

Speaking of the ironborn, this is a pretty great post about the misconceptions of the ironborn that people fall into backed up with evidence:

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4l568z/spoilers_everything_a_quick_defense_of_the/

to be fair a lot know about it, is just the same point repeating over and over: the ironborn dosent have a graps of reality and repeat the same problem over and over and over.

Also why people defend Asha so much? I understand some of theon hate but Asha is ironborn proper, maybe smarter than Balon or victarion but not for much.

Wasn't Asha the only candidate at the kingsmoot who wanted to withdraw from the war? I overall get the idea that she at least has a clearer idea of where the Ironborn's strengths and weaknesses lie than the romantics Balon or Victarion do. I think Euron does, also, but unlike Asha he's very willing to play the populist to the Ironborn.

Euron is playing the magical game here, he have no interest in Iron throne and wants dragons, so is diferent, being pretty much viking saruman.

Asha wants to hold what they gain and mantain because otherwise they are going to lose it all, victaron just want to continue what balon started

IT FELT SO HARD, TO LOOOOSE IT AAAAAAAAALLLL

Yeah, Asha is one of the smartest of the Ironborn because she knows that when the war is over they'll keep nothing and they'll be lucky to even keep the Islands, and their "gains" only amounted to like two castles that were poorly garrisoned only because the Northerners were all down south.

Granted it will be a cold day in westero before the north surrender their island to those greyjoy freaks....

Oh wait....

Lucky to keep the islands? They have the greatest fleet.

What would the north be able to do if the iron born took bear island?

The North has already done the necessary part. They put the she bears in charge of Bear island.