The general thread of generalness (a.k.a. we talk about everything)

In other news, the (Japanese) site for the next Overdrive game is up, and it certainly looks different from other Overdrive games so far. Similarly, the re-translation of Edelweiss should be finished in about a month, leading into the translation of Dear Drops.

Interesting. I thought it was going to be about soccer for some reason...

You know, G Senjou No Maou made me think a little about the heroes and heroines of V Ns. And the thing is, there's just so many more excellent heroines out their than their opposites. I pretty much have one favorite hero - Kenichi from Sharin No Kuni - and about three others that I find interesting, but can't really seem to get too attached to.

But heroines? Usami Haru, Tsugumi Komachi, Tohsaka Rin, Arcueid Brunestud, Ayu Tsukimiya, etc. Easily enough that even when you count the numbers difference there are more notables there. And even when you get past the really good ones, you'll still find more that are at least above average than you will with the actual protagonist.

I suppose the obvious reason is that most writers put more effort into the focus of the games, but now that I'm really thinking about, that seems... off. For all the best V Ns I can think of, the ones that really stand out are the ones that had the best main characters, yet so often they're left underdeveloped to focus on the girls. For example, Shirou is one of my favorite VN heroes and I don't even really like him.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I wanted to get this out there while I was thinking about it.

I think it's because the writers want to give the reader a sense of relating to the main characters. Like when I was reading Kira Kira Curtain Call, the main character was rather.... unique, and definitely had a different feel from other V Ns.

Yet the best V Ns seem to to have difficult to relate to protagonists. Kenichi is a broken genius, Shirou is insane and Shiki is potentially ax crazy. Tomoya and Yuichi have deep emotional scars beneath the surface. All these examples tend to be from what's considered the best V Ns out there. While the Key ones also have an element of 'This guy is you, only funny, popular with girls and cooler' the story is also about resolving their issues and not just the girls'.

It makes for at least somewhat of a deeper narrative, and it seems clear that doing so makes for more highly regarded works. I wish more writers would focus on the main character at least as much as any of the girls. If nothing else, at least he wouldn't be overshadowed so badly.

I honestly don't agree with that opinion. I mean, yeah they have some psychological issues but their personalities aren't that all weird. Like if you had Sunohara as the protagonist (AHAHAHAHAHHAHA), it would be totally different. The general character is pretty standard and normal for most V Ns.

But yeah, I agree that more main character development would be great. Like in Umineko, Battler gets a lot of development from what I've read so far.

Well, you can't get too extreme with how strange and unrelatable you want to make your protagonist, so I suppose I may have overstated it. But of the really good V Ns that I've read, I think only Ever17 and Da Capo II really had kind of generic protagonists... but both of them were highly influential and had their surprises. A story like Canvas2 falls flat because while the main character can be funny, he's just not that special. He brings the story down.

I thought Canvas wasn't boring because of the protagonist, but it was just BORING. Nothing interesting going on. But yeah, I get your point.

Well, sure, it wasn't exactly a stellar work. But a good main character can make everything else seem better with it. Take, for example, Kanon. I really like it, but looking back I only really like two of the heroines, and one of those two doesn't really have that good of a route. Yet I find it easy to overlook that because Yuichi is just so entertaining.

By the way, I remember us - the community as a whole, not necessarily Neowbowman and I - talking about VN tropes at some earlier point. I was wondering, do we have a trope specifically about V Ns not stating the age of the character due to Japan's consent laws? Replaying Clannad made me remember the bit in After Story where Tomoya and Nagisa don't sleep together until they're both over 20 but that's not the trope I'm thinking of. It just reminded me of it.

I vaguely remember that. Not to mention that all Mangagamer releases lie through their teeth by stating all characters are over 18 (the entire heroine cast of DC II is under that age).

As for VN male leads, Clannad is an interesting case, because Tomoya can only be "completely fixed" by Nagisa and Nagisa alone. Red String of Fate taken to the logical extreme, perhaps when we consider Illusionary World Ushio and the garbage doll.

edited 21st Jan '11 8:28:57 AM by MiyaKousaka

Well, Minatsu could be over 18, but that's cheating. But yes, that's what I'm thinking of. The way they're either very vague about how old the characters are or give them ages that are highly improbable or even contradicted by the story.

:P Minatsu would indeed be cheating. Darned Ridiculously Human Robots. The To Heart franchise has the same schtick too, and none of the characters there are over 18 (with the notable exception of Yuzuhara Haruka in TH 2 and all the Robot Maids Multi, Serio, Ilfa, Harumi and Silfa).

Hold on a second, how old is Ilya again?

edited 21st Jan '11 8:38:33 AM by MiyaKousaka

Ilya was eightish in Fate Zero and there's a ten year timeskip to FSN. I think she's intended to be about 20 though.

Still doesn't excuse Sakura, Rin and Ayako though. And Saber, who is biologically 15.

Well, Ilya has no sex scenes... amusing since she's the one that they could legally depict if they chose.

But yes, I was thinking of FSN and Da Capo mostly when I asked. Da Capo is pretty blatantly set in a middle school.

Excellent point, yeah. I don't know what that trope would be called though.

Well, I put up a Lost And Found about it and if nothing pops up I'll make a ykttw about it.

Have you started DCII yet?

Still don't have a cracked exe. D:

Pff, excuses excuses. Well, when one does show up, you'll see it's quite a bit better than the original. I don't even hate the Nemu clone.

Edit: As for Clannad, I thought Kotomi and Tomoyo did a pretty good job at helping Tomoya.

edited 21st Jan '11 9:13:43 AM by Arha

But Yume-chan's so cute and headstrong :3. How could you not like her?

DC II is vastly improved due to the better story overall, and the twist involving Yoshiyuki and Sakura. Speaking of Sakura, as much as you hated her, you will feel sorry for her.

^ They did pretty good, but they never made him whole the way Nagisa did. (I discount Tomoyo After since I have no way of knowing the exact details and character development there).

I should also really be going for now~

edited 21st Jan '11 9:15:59 AM by MiyaKousaka

Yeah, Yume was fine. Koko was the one I disliked, and that's not because her character was bad but because I didn't care for her route.

I kind of felt Tomoya didn't need to be absolutely whole. Kotomi and Tomoyo easily did enough. Kyou and Fuuko kind of failed in that aspect.

And later, Mapi.

edited 21st Jan '11 9:17:50 AM by Arha

^ I disagree in that regard. I mean, Clannad's whole aesop is about family and making up with his father is such a huge part of his character development.

Still gotta get DC II argh.

Well, I don't think Tomoya is really better off having accepted what his father did in raising him. And honestly I think Tomoya's dad is just as shitty as he thought all along. In the future, I expect at least Tomoyo to push Tomoya into some sort of reconciliation with his father, which will hopefully be able to happen without his dad ruining his future prospects by gambling or embezzling or whatever it was he did.

I don`t know why you think Tomoya`s father was all that bad. Didn`t all his actions get explained by his mother?