During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I know nothing about DITVB, so my vote isn't reliable, but based on the text, I's say all of the examples seem to at least barely qualify.
Likevise, from the text alone, I give for the first two and the last film examples, but am uncertain about the third.
So... Mister Dark... The discussion was cut a bit short. Did he qualify, or not?
edited 3rd Aug '13 11:22:07 AM by CodenameBravo
Well, I've reversed my nay on those grounds, and he has the deeds. I'd say we can put him back if nobody else objects.
If you have any questions on the DIVB examples, let me know
edited 3rd Aug '13 11:18:54 AM by Lightysnake
Okay. Here is the old text. Do you think that it needs modifications?
- Mister Dark casually destroys and perverts everybody and everything around him to turn Nightmare Fuel level horrible For the Evulz. Casually and condescendingly causing former friends to savagely murder each other, turning his victims into undead slaves, and spreading intense gloom, doom, fear, despair, murder, oppression, and corruption everywhere, with no provocation whatsoever necessary from anybody.
Yes, needs descriptions of what he actually and specifically does
Well, in this particular storyline he does all of the above to an entire city (presumably New York), and is either implied or stated outright (I don't remember) to influence and plan to give the full treatment to the entire planet.
edited 3rd Aug '13 11:38:55 AM by CodenameBravo
Yes, but it needs the specific acts: who does he do them to, specific instances of character
The people he ravages, decays, and turns into slaves are millions of unnamed normal people, save for the storybook characters Fafhrd And The Gray Mouser.
edited 3rd Aug '13 11:40:37 AM by CodenameBravo
Could you provide a link?
I'm still undecided on Jeffery and Eddy's brother, so won't cast votes either way at this point.
@ Sea Rover: I went ahead and made those changes to the sandbox, but you don't have to ask me to do that. It's a wiki page intended to be edited and updated by any participant in the thread. It should give us a more easy way to keep track of and resolve all the unresolved discussions without looking over multiple pages with 10 different conversations running through each other. Just add the new examples you bring up in the thread.
@ Lightysnake:
RE: Film examples: I support adding Young-min, Dr. Richard Vollin, and Hjalmar Poelzig based on your descriptions. I do have two questions on the Seok brothers. First, do they personally stand out from one another as candidates? The way it's written almost makes it seem like two for the price of one, and they can't qualify in concert, only individually. Second, what is their personal relationship like? Do they loathe each other? Are they loyal to each other? Do they love each other?
RE: Hando: I've only seen snippets of Romper Stomper, but Hando sounds like he disqualifies based on the care he shows those other Neo-Nazi hooligans.
RE: Ivanovic, Rozemann, and Gabe: for all three of them. Nasty pieces of work.
@ Anyone: I think it would be beneficial to add a link to the current debate sandbox to the FAQ. Anyone agree?
edited 3rd Aug '13 12:44:14 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
We typically rule it's okay for duos, or trios to qualify together absent redeeming qualities and concert of the deeds (For the Three Lords I first made the entry the evil deeds they did together, but then listed Ivanovic and Rozenmann. Li mightqualify based on how he decided to resort to genocide on Chinese towns and villages, but his feelings to his sister are ambiguous so I'm waiting to see there.)
Jeong-Seok and Man-Seok work together on everything, but never really display as far as I can remember, any love or affection to one another beyond a good working relationship. They're pretty equal in crimes (Jeong-seok carries out torture himself, Man-seok makes business decisions),and it's really not possible to separate them as they do most everything together. The only times it shows otherwise is after Jeong-seok dies.
edited 3rd Aug '13 12:51:42 PM by Lightysnake
Joffrey/Jeff(whatever) fails the heinous standard. There's people far worse. Whether or not it's played for laughs isn't as important as the heinous factor. Which his is not high enough at all.
Unless the others are legitimate candidates for being a Complete Monster due to be far worse, I can't see why he should apply just because he's played for seriousness.
You guys need to pay attention about whether you are talking about Jeff from Ed, Edd n Eddy or Joffrey from Game of Thrones.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lizzid people!
Uh, Jeff's from Family Guy, not Ed Edd N Eddy. I personally believe that some bullies could successfully graduate to Complete Monsterdom.
Sorry, I meant the Family Guy character. Jeff.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
From the Lit page for Fire and Ice:
Flays another finger.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm gonna request a change for clarity and cutting that last sentence.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Regarding Jeff, I'm not sure if this is a valid argument, but Jeff has done absolutely nothing redeeming in the one episode he appeared in. As bad as the other characters are, they have their share of redeeming moments (even barring the first three seasons, where everyone was much better than later on). Quagmire's concern for his sister, the very person Jeff was abusing, is an obvious example, and there was also an episode in which he saves another woman from a heart attack. Peter once helped Carter find a new lover, and then to win Babs back, after having spilt his illicit affair to everyone else, despite the animosity Carter has towards him. Lois wanted a decent education for Chris in the episode No Chris Left Behind, and from what I gather, Carter did provide just that at the end of that episode. Lois also has a much more loving relationship with Meg than Peter does, such as the time she took her out for a makeover. Stewie and Brian have Road to the North Pole, in which they take up Santa Claus' job after seeing the shitty condition that he, his elves and reindeer, and his home are all in. Joe did apologize for being a jerkass to his friends while having the use of his legs back, after being re-crippled by them and his wife. I could go on, but the point is, none of these are things Jeff would even think of doing.
Everyone in the show has their redeeming qualities and/or actions except him. He's the one person who, even offscreen, has likely had zero genuine Pet the Dog moments. Therefore, I say, keep him.
edited 3rd Aug '13 3:30:33 PM by SeaRover
That may be true, but his actions still seem to fail the heinous standard
Captain of USS Bajor
Definite yes on Bolton. Also yes on the vampire lords and the pedophile mook in DITVB (can confirm Ivanovic and the pedo myself, haven't read far enough for the others).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
and : Jeff indeed has NO redeeming qualities, and is a Knight of Cerebus, but his actions aren't as bad as Carter or Penelope (who DO have redeeming qualities. Ergo, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
edited 3rd Aug '13 4:09:25 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Speaking of Bolton, I wonder why Frey isn't on the lit page but on the live action TV page, is he portrayed worse on the show or something? While I have finished that episode and he DOES have a CM vibe as far as S3 is concerned, what happened in the novels I wonder?
edited 3rd Aug '13 5:37:23 PM by xie323
In the books he has some redeaming features and there are more villians in the book which makes it impossible for him to stand out. He loses said redeeming features in the show and less villians to compete against.
On DC And Vertigo, how can Prometheus count if he apparently loved his parents?
The Dance examples are here on this page
. Mainly just a rewrite as the original grouped the Three Lords together too much.
The film examples are on this one