Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yeah, we really need to pick and choose what we list for Palpatine. It's implied a couple of times he's near-literally a living Moral Event Horizon, as far as the Force goes.

edited 7th May '13 6:00:29 PM by HamburgerTime

Re: Star Wars So what should we do with Belok Rhal?

Alright, rewriting the Tabletop games examples

From Deadlands

• Jasper Stone is the Harrowed responsible for bringing Hell to earth. Originally a Confederate officer with a reputation for cruelty and brutality. When he became the servant of the Reckoners, the Four Horsemen of the Apocaypse, Stone ruthlessly killed any who could stand in their way, hunting down and murdering countless heroes. Stone does everything of his own free will for his hunger to take lives and to see hell on earth enacted

Dungeons And Dragons

• The Book Of Vile Darkness gives us The Dread Emperor. An imposing, 2 meter tall man in golden armor, the Dread Emperor keeps children chained to his armor at all times with any damage done to the Emperor himself transferred to the children. The Emperor uses these children as a bait for any heroes foolish enough to take him on and will often destroy entire city blocks when he's a mind to. When a hero challenges him, the Dread Emperor feels no compunction slaying hundreds simply to kill a target or mentally enslaving any civilians nearby and using them to attack his opponent for him.

• Mystara gives up Baron Ludwig von Hendriks, The Black Eagle, an insane aristocrat who rules the Barony of the Black Eagle. von Hendriks has raids conducted where innocent halflings are often taken and enslaved and is most infamous for the tortures he inflicts. In the Black Eagle Barony, being accused of a crime gets you before his court. The problem is von Hendriks only cares how loud you can scream and devises nasty tortures that he's used on countless innocents.
  • The Baron's former right hand man Bargle the Infamous is just as evil. As the Black Eagle Barony's number 2, Bargle enforced its brutal reign of terror, and deserted it when it fell. Bargle had used many innocents and captives in twisted experiments. he later participated in destroying the flying city of the gnomes and captured a well known cleric to father his child on her, after presenting her with the tortured corpse of her husband.
  • In the 3.0 adventure The Bastion Of Broken Souls, we have Ashardalon, an incredibly ancient, powerful and wicked red dragon. Already a cruel and rapacious creature in his own right, after having been mortally injured by a powerful druidess who didn't live long enough to celebrate the deed, he managed to sustain himself by substituting his own failing heart with a denizen of the Abyss - a Balor, no less. Of course, the demon was not enthusiastic about this, and Ashardalon had to search for another way to extend his lifespan... hitting the jackpot when he discovered an Eldritch Location deep inside the Plane of Positive Energy where the souls of every living creature are born and reside before getting a body. There, he settled down with a few of his servants and began devouring pre-incarnated souls in order to live forever. This act is causing countless being across the universe to be born without a soul, horribly alive and at the same utterly dead... but if the P Cs call the dragon out on his crimes, his answer is that he doesn't care if he fucks up the multiverse, as long as he gets to enjoy eternity as the self-styled "ultimate predator".
• Greyhawk gives us the aptly named Iuz The Evil, the cambion child of the demon lord Graz'zt and the human witch Iggwilv. In his early career, Iuz rallied an army and launched a series of brutal campaigns that gave him the name 'Lord Of Pain' or the atrocities he committed on innocents. Eventually, Iuz gathered powerful sorcerers and drained them of life to add their powers to his in a path to godhood. Eventually becoming a demigod, Iuz ended up feared by all those who knew him, with no care towards either of his parents or any in his way. He eventually resorted to murdering his formerly loyal servants and replacing them with Fiends solely for convenience and power.
• Forgotten Realms gives us Cyric. In the aftermath of the Time of Troubles, when the three prime gods of evil died, Cyric was raised to godhood for his evil in order to replace them. Cyric proceeded to prove his cruelty by murdering and oppressing other gods, sending his servants to steal faithful worshipers from the afterlife to torture in his realm, instituting cruel punishments on the dead. Cyric invented new ways to drive beings made, even succumbing to them himself for a time. Even after regaining his sanity, Cyric gleefully murdered his enemy Mystra, the Goddess of Magic, inflicting the hideous Spellplague that scarred the face of Faerun forever and claimed many lives.
• Magic The Gathering brings us Yawgmoth, who was born a normal Thran on the world of Dominaria during the reign of the technologically advanced Thran empire, about 5000 years before the birth of the inventor Urza. He was banished for his unorthodox beliefs regarding diseases and healing, but returned to the capital city of Halcyon to treat Glacian, the renowned engineer and inventor, who was suffering from an unknown illness after being attacked by an exiled leper named Gix. Though Yawgmoth was by trade & profession a medic, his ways went towards an unnatural fascination with the mechanics of the body. This fascination led to experiments with plagues and poisons, several of which caused widespread death among the various races that he had visited. Yawgmoth was also slowly drianing Glacian's soul to fuel his own power. Yawgmoth later learned about planes from the wizard Dyfed, until he subdued her and gave her to his followers for dissection. Ruing his own realm, Yawgmoth plotted further conquest, corrupting and killing other heroes and innocents. When he invaded Dominaria, he killed millions of innocents before he was destroyed.

I think Dimentio and the Shadow Queen from the Paper Mario series might need a rewrite.

Shadow Queen from Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door. She destroyed a city and murdered thousands who got in her way. She destroyed town after town and had her minions steal treasures to put in her palace. Furthermore, she created dungeons and torture chambers for people to be feasted on by her pet dragons, and created the Crystal Stars to keep the world in this state. Even in defeat, she trapped the four heroes who defeated her into boxes for one thousand years. Dimentio from Super Paper Mario. He's pretty entertaining for most of the game, but by the end, he's just plain freaky. To give you a pretty good idea as to why he qualifies for this trope, he cracks jokes when causing Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser's deaths, and he also plans to stab Count Bleck in the back and gain control over the Chaos Heart in order to ensure that all dimensions but his are destroyed so he could recreate the universe in his image and implies that he intends to torture Bleck and his followers as soon as he's killed Mario. What seals his fate as a Complete Monster is, after being defeated by Mario, Peach, and Bowser, he ends up deciding to erase all universes anyway as he is dying, meaning that his final action was one that would ensure the deaths of what is implied to be at least trillions of people.

I forgot but did we cut Jabba The Hutt? If not, he fails the heinous standard compared to Sidious and Tarkin.

Jabba has been cut, likely due to loving his son. The ROTJ YMMV page at one point claimed he was worse than Sidious. EFFING LOL.

Somebody needs to do a rewrite for the Ace Attorney examples. Dahlia's is way too long, Kristoph's is about half the size (and his is the second biggest!) and Matt Engarde doesn't really list his atrocities that well.

And I know 32 Footsteps already discussed them but could we go over the Ace Attorney examples again? I don't think there was a clear verdict for them.

Part of me is thinking of cutting Engarde because he really doesn't fit the AA heinous standard set by Kristoph and Dahlia both of whom are accomplished serial killers or have attempted to murder more than one person. Don't get me wrong, he's a huge self-absorbed asshole (he gives Gaston and Gilderoy Lockheart a run for their money!) and easily one of the least sympathetic murderers of the bunch but he doesn't have Dahlia or Kristoph's rap sheet.

Alba could probably stay, but I'm thinking Manfred should probably go too for not being as heinous as Kristoph or Dahlia.

We did alread discuss them. We agreed to keep Manfred and Engarde by a pretty solid verdict from what I recall.

Cutting Naga and Coredragon from YMMV.Bakugan Battle Brawlers

After we are done with star wars, we will need to work on goosebumps, tons of no context examples. The literature page lists slappy with good context, and there is one example on the ymmv page with good context, but almost all other examples are without context, I have read some of the series so I can help.

Belok Rhal sounds like a keeper (judging from Wookiepedia), but I don't know how much of his crimes were onscreen, so I leave the judgement to the rest.

Oh and just for the lulz, about Palpatine http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100403180228AAIDoIM

Some people are just weird

edited 8th May '13 7:50:41 AM by Forenperser

BTW, how are there no Monsters for Theater?

edited 8th May '13 10:03:52 AM by ACW

Gotta love the "Palpatine is only evil 'cause George Lucas is biased" comment. Well, yeah he is, because he created the series, so his biases are canon...

@Lightysnake

The new write-ups for Tabletop games look like a big improvement.

I am also going to recommend that Luthor be cut from the comic book subpage. We've danced around the idea before, and I think it's finally time to do it. His worst deeds are, as Lightysnake and I discussed in PM, collected from across his appearances, so there's no single version of him that can be considered for CM-hood. While he's a moral cesspool, he's rarely without some standards or redeeming traits, and even when he is, those moments rarely seem to line up with his worst actions (sometimes he's heinous by the standards of the story, sometimes he has no good traits, but he's rarely both at the same time).

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Luthor shares a comic book with Brainiac, who is far, far worse than Luthor can ever be. It isn't a case of the more powerful being overshadowing the lesser one either. Luthor has consistently demonstrated that, like Marvel's Dr. Doom, he has it in him to be a world class threat, organising one supervillain collective after another, and being The Man Behind the Man in half the crossovers out there. Yet despite that, Brainiac's list of horrendous crimes is far larger then Luthor's, and dates back to the end of the Silver Age.

In short, I think Luthor needs to go. Bad as he may be, he's not quite bad enough.

Speaking of Brainiac, is his writeup detailed enough?

EDIT: Ditto for Omega Red.

edited 8th May '13 10:39:44 AM by ACW

Every version of Lex I am aware of has either had some sort of moral standard or been a complete joke.

Since there seems to be no story where he's completely evil or meets the heinous standard compared to Brainiac, I agree that Lex Luthor should be cut.

@ACW

Brainiac's a case where graphically detailing his crimes would in fact, fill up half a page. I think the current entry touches on the worst things that each version of him has done, though if you feel that I missed anything vital when I wrote it up, please feel free to add them in.

I don't know about a complete joke (even the Gene Hackman version was reasonably competent for a Silver Age movie villain) but he's never gone the extra mile that some Superman villains like Brainiac or the alternate universe version of Zod have.

It's not even just Brainiac. Some versions of General Zod have been worse as well. I just used Brainiac as an example because he's the other iconic villain in Superman's Rogues Gallery, and is roughly comparable to Luthor in terms of intellect, modus operandi, and threat level.

@12531: Monster.Tabletop Games

• Warhammer 4000
  • Fabius Bile: Keep but his entry could use expansion.
  • Abaddon: Keep.
  • Chaos Champions: Cut.
  • Tzeentech: Cut.
• Deadlands:
  • Jasper Stone: Keep and substitute with rewrite @12590.
  • Cut Ezekiah Grimme and Raven until someone can come up with entries which list specific deeds.
• Exalted
  • The Ebon Dragon: Keep.
  • The Bodhisattva: Little confused by the entry. Was he deliberately causing people to be ghosts so he could use them as raw material in ship building and currency? Also, did he come up with the system to use ghosts that way in the first place or was that system thought of by someone else?
• Dungeons And Dragons:
  • The Dread Emperor: Keep with the rewrite @12590.
  • Baron Ludwig "The Black Eagle" von Hendriks: Keep with rewrite @12590.
  • Bargle the Infamous: Keep with rewrite @12590.
  • Evil Sorcerers: Cut for being a group.
  • Darklords: Cut for being a group.
  • Vlad Drakov: Rewrite or cut for being a stub.
  • Ashardalon: Keep.
  • The Elder Evil Examples: Cut all of them for being stubs sharing a single entry.
    • Servants of the Elder Evil examples: Cut them all too for the same reason as their bosses.
• Iuz from Greyhawk: Keep with rewrite @12590.
• Forgotten Realms:
  • Myrkul: Finally a decently written example. Keep.
  • Cyric: Keep with rewrite @12590.
  • Lollth: Hey another decently written example! Keep.
• Borys of Ebe from Dark Sun: Agree that he sounds like a keeper but he could use a rewrite.
• Battle Tech:
  • Stefan Amaris: Keep but give him his own entry.
  • Jinjiro Kurita: Sounds like he cares about his dad. Cut.
  • Katherine Steiner-Davion: Keep but her actions in the first paragraph need to be merged with those in the third.
  • Liao: They sound like a group (or a rank or something) and it says that nearly everyone who wants to become one needs to be a Complete Monster. Cut.
  • Unnamed Kurita Commander: Cut. Doesn't sound heinous enough.
  • Mech Warriors Brotherhoods: Cut. Group.
  • Hanse Davion: Cut, the entry even says he doesn't count.
  • General Amos Forlough: Keep. His entry looks fine.
• Yawgmoth from Magic The Gathering: Keep with rewrite @12590.
• World Of Darkness:
  • Sascha Vykos: Keep.
  • Larry Meeks, Harvey Ecks, and Thomas Salvatore: All discussed and approved of here previously.
• Carman Skiric of Battle Machines: Keep.
• Pathfinder examples: Already discussed and approved of here previously.

edited 8th May '13 2:55:09 PM by OccasionalExister

@12531

Actually we voted cut on Abaddon if we check back a while, or the consensus was cut with me leading the cut decision. The verdict was that the entry was poorly written as it said that "Abaddon wants to kill everyone, and in a setting such as 40K, this mindset was fairly standard". However Shaoken does have a rebuttal so if he wants to rebut me and possibly change some minds, I will not push for a cut but hear him out. So switching from no to abstain—there does seem to be a decent case for keeping him, so I'll hear that out before making a decision. Also someone added Kharn on the WH 40 K YMMV page because his actions is a bit above the average fare for Khronate bezerkers.

Kyras was keep but move to video games section as the belief was that his behavior was fairly standard in 40K canon but heinous in the scope of the game itself.

Also what was the concensus for Diablo in D3? I know me and lighty believed it's a keep and the concensus did point that way but was it resolved? Also we need a Monster/Blizzard section for all the Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo examples.

edited 8th May '13 3:13:09 PM by xie323

I think we had a winning vote to keep on Diablo

I'll vote keep on abaddon, though

The WH 40 K YMMV page also mentions Kheradruakh and Urien, but it's very poorly worded. If there is a reason why they're kept, than please say why.

Also for Kharn they argue it's because he kills innocents and his own men callously, which Khrone apprently frowns upon but still gets away with it.

edited 8th May '13 3:17:16 PM by xie323

I'm only nominally knowledgeable with the 40K universe, but I have some misgivings with Kharn. Does he even think? It's sounds like he's so utterly insane that he's more of a force of nature than someone as actively cruel and aware of what's he's doing as Abaddon.

Also, doesn't Khorne approve of Kharn's actions, hence why he revives Kharn whenever he dies?

I was just looking through YMMV/X-Men and three villains seem questionable. Well, four (it seems Apocalypse was manipulated by Farouk?).

• Selene's draining seems to be how she survives.
• Omega Red's writeup doesn't seem to make him as bad as some of the others (and the pedophilia's only implied).
• As far as mutant haters, Stryker seems bad, but not as bad as Donald Pierce (and boy it seems Pierce puts everyone else on the list to shame; though is he human or machine? If machine, he may lack moral authority).

edited 8th May '13 4:16:09 PM by ACW

IIRC Pierce turned himself into a cyborg, and he has full moral agency. Stryker's an interesting case because Claremont tried to redeem him in his second appearance, but he came back later on and his opinion of his redemption was essentially "Tried it; didn't like it." He thereafter proceeded to obliterate about fifty Moral Event Horizons so I'm comfortable keeping him.

Apocalypse wasn't manipulated by Farouk; Farouk tried to drive a character named Genesis, who is a clone of Apocalypse, insane to turn him into a new Apocalypse; Poccy's far older than Farouk.

edited 8th May '13 4:17:02 PM by HamburgerTime

Okay on Pierce and "Poccy" , but as for Stryker, it's not that he's not evil, it's as he heinous as other villains? And what about Selene and Omega?

edited 8th May '13 4:17:31 PM by ACW