During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Light Yagami is a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanIf i am remembering well, the atrocities of Rod Ross are:
- Kidnapped a totally innocent girl(with traumatizing effects) and menaced kill her to force her father-a honest policeman- to give a Death Note.
- After trade the girl with the Death Note, menaced kill her with the own Death Note in the case of meddling of her father.
- Already with the Death Note, to avoid the death caused by the fake rule created by Light, he forced one of his followers to write in the Death Note in his place.
- He used the Death Note of the same manner than Higuchi and with the same motives- kill his rivals.
- He killed said father- and himself- to avoid capture.
Light a Well-Intentioned Extremist? Oh please, this is thoroughly deconstructed by the series. He's an egomaniac brat whose whole "I wanna end crime" shtick is nothing more than a malicious attempt to be worshiped. Given his first reaction to criticism is "DIE!" and all?
And that doesn't disqualify Megatron. Inferno is simply one of the few useful men he has and an asset. Megatron openly threatens him at one point and has no real remorse vaporizing him and Quickstrke
That was the argument that was brought up against Light Yagami the last time Death Note was discussed.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Cleric of Banjo
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I know we discussed Light earlier (I can link to it if you like). I agree that Light is not a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
However, he loves his family (sort of) and more importantly, he's a perfectly decent guy whenever he doesn't have the Death Note, which also argues against the total lack of redeeming qualities.
edited 3rd May '13 7:33:33 AM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
My disagreement on that is a bit two-fold. He very calmly considers killing them if necessary and isn't really upset whatsoever when his sister is crippled. Even his dad's death is just "Dad, hurry up and tell me Mello's name before- DAMMIT!"
I'm not sure being a good person when you lose very relevant memories and instantly go back to being a total bastard when you get them back i a great endorsement, either
Cleric of Banjo
This may be one of those cases where bad writing complicates things.
I don't know how to explain why Light is a genuinely good guy when he doesn't have the note (both during the period of Amnesiac Dissonance and for the first 5 minutes of the show), but is a total bastard when he does have it.
I have issues with the explanation that the Death Note exerts some kind of evil force on the minds of its users, but I wouldn't totally rule it out, given the personality shifts its user's experience.
In any case, I think that Light being a good person absent the Note at least somewhat argues against a total lack of redeeming qualities.
One other thing, I don't want to touch this one, but Word of God indicates that Japan was a much safer (better?) place during Light's reign of terror.
edited 3rd May '13 7:56:03 AM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
I'm sure it was when anyone is terrified that saying the wrong word about the self appointed god will get them de-existed.
The shift in my eyes is similar to the Apostles from Berserk: power corrupts. Light was always an egotistical little prick and the Death Note allowed him to bring his megalomania out in full force. the second he gets his memories back he goes "JUST AS PLANNED," kills a person he called his friend and goes on to do worse.
Cleric of Banjo
Glad you brought up Berserk, as I was trying to think of a way of bringing that up as a comparison.
I totally agree that it really makes the most sense and is most consistent with his character to conclude that like Griffith, he was always a bad guy and the Artifact of Doom just let him indulge in his megalomania.
However, I'm not sure how to square that with the person he is during that amnesic period.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
On the subject of Death Note. I think we're going to have to cut Higuchi. While I'm inclined to think that morally he is worse then Light, as he lacks even the pretense of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, Light's vastly greater bodycount is likely enough to exclude him. Additionally, the other members of the Yotsuba Group are just as bad as Higuchi. He just happens to be the one who actually has the book.
As for Light himself, we had this discussion already, but does he actually show any empathy when he's without the book? He shows an obsession with following "The Rules" but does he ever actually empathise with anybody?
I could use some responses to those film examples I posted over the last page or so. Most of them, I think, need to go.
And speaking of Berserk we missed one. The Beast, Guts' Superpowered Evil Side, is still listed on the subpage. Given that The Beast is made up of all Guts' accumulated pain, rage, self-loathing, and misery, its moral agency is questionable at best. Additionally, the things it tries to drive him to do (murder, rape, torture) are still not as bad as the crimes committed by Wyald, Griffith, or Ganishka. I'm going to recommend a cut.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The Beast seems Made of Evil. Ganishka: seems bad, but seems paranoid; don't know if he's a complete monster. The other two...yeesh ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Haven't seen it BTW.
I'm not familiar with the Ganishka arc but I know Ganishka's generally considered the worst person in the series, so much that when Griffith and him fought the fandom sided with Griffith (which wasn't due to standards on Griffith's part; Ganishka was gunning for his job). May be due in part to Griffith being a Bishōnen and Ganishka being a hairy overweight gonk, but still.
edited 3rd May '13 10:45:45 AM by HamburgerTime
When Light loses the Death Note as part of his plan, did he go into making it so he was the least likely suspect? I mean, it was almost like Light programmed a new personality for himself to throw L's suspicions off. Since even without the Note in the first place, he didn't act...as 'chummy' with people as he did when he had purposely erased his own memory.
Cleric of Banjo
That isn't a property of the Note (it really only is good for killing people). It does seem like you can to an extent influence behavior and feelings of someone whose name you write in the note, but it wouldn't allow Light to Heel Face Mindscrew himself.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
The notion that the fandom as a whole sided with Griffith is really exaggerated (and comes up every time we have this discussion for some reason). I've been on message boards where people were cheering for Ganishka instead. It's not really relevant anyway.
x3. His change probably means only that he changed radically post- Death Note. Exists a trope to this- Became Their Own Antithesis. If any thing, it fits with his Fallen Angel symbolism.
Except even without the Note, Light was a narcissistic, selfish, ego driven person. He only cared about 'becoming god' to satisfy his own ego. Think about it: it was stated that most normal people would use the Note once or twice to see if it works, but then be horrified by the results and never use it again. Light? He puts hundreds or thousands of names in the first week.
edited 3rd May '13 12:49:21 PM by SuperSaiyaMan
yeah, something I have to note...we have a lot of complete monsters who became such via character development. In Light's hypothetical case, he received the Note and from there, he became driven and obsessed and lost in the possibility of becoming a God.
After those memories were gone, he was essentially a different person without the major catalyst. When it was regained, he isn't horrified with "Oh, God, I've become a monster," he just gloats "JUST AS PLANNED."
Lost in Space
Light was resolved a long time ago. If you don't have something novel to add, then the matter is closed.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Cleric of Banjo
I'm speculating here, but I think that perhaps the circumstances of learning about the Death Note during the amnesia period (being accused of being a murderer) were such that in that situation, the "base Light" (i.e. what Light was like pre-Death Note) reacted with horror to the power.
In contrast, at the very beginning of the series, Light learns of the Death Note under very different circumstances (he's bored and feels disgusted at the mad/"mediocre" people around him), which is why he reacted in a very different way.
Basically, the amnesia allowed Light to learn of the Death Note under circumstances that wouldn't bring up the (originally repressed) megalomaniac side of his personality.
Ok, I'll stop discussing it then. I agree with the determination that he very narrowly avoids qualifying.
edited 3rd May '13 1:22:38 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Dr Claw from the live acton Inspector Gadget movies is listed, mainly for his actons in the second film, have not seen either though I did see the nostalgia critics review of the first. From what I have read, the second film is less dark than the first film. Does dr Claw, at any point throughout the two live acton films, really count?
PS should I cut both american dad examples?
edited 3rd May '13 1:24:05 PM by bobg
jjj
Oh, ye gods, cut with prejudice
Are you refering to the american dad examples, dr claw, or both?
Well, not having seen it, but if Higuchi stays, why not light?
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