During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oscar's excuse wasn't tragic or sympathetic - it was played as him being pathetic, and jealously doesn't come anywhere close to being a posessive control freak!
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I don't see any need for a quote switch for ASOIAF, honestly.
@Beast
Okay then. I'm not gonna change my vote though, as I found him to be pitiful enough in the end despite being a terrible person overall. This is just my opinion so no need to get upset over it.
I also thought that he was a terribly written character and I hated him for being a Hate Sink character and also to The Scrappy level of how needlessly stupid he was. Which is probably why I simply don't get his character the way you guys do. The film itself was OK, it had a nice idea but it didn't utilize its full potential in the end. As a monster/drama film it was decent but uninspiring as a black comedy.
edited 22nd Feb '18 3:23:12 PM by Kookosbanaani
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Oakwidow.
We should get a vote tally for Oakwidow. Lighty, you said I had a point when I first made my argument, so did your initial vote change?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Tally time for Oakwidow
- Yes votes:MGD 107,Men In Greyto Blak,Tommy Fresh,Utter Koala,miraculous,Clownface,Ravok,43110,NTG,G-Editor,Lightysnake (10/11)
- Nay:Me,Lore Deluxe,Demon Duckof Doom,Joe Blitz,xie323 (5)
- In the Middle:Lightysnake
If Lore's arguement does hold up (Given hes also a Warcraft expert other than Lighty.) Put me as a no vote
edited 22nd Feb '18 5:31:19 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Doesn't even like this username
A late ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Oscar, having just watched the movie. I don't interpret his character as ever having been genuinely nice and he certainly isn't played for sympathy.
I'll give Oakwidow a as well. I feel the argument about how she's different from Krastinov holds up.
I know this is more of a personal opinion of mine, but Oakwidow just feels so generic to me. Her actions are so run of the mill when it comes to what even minor quest villains do in game.
A satyr in the night elf starting zone tricks the player into murdering numerous animal allies, and in the next zone procures plagues from the Forsaken and uses it to poison wildlife used to sustain the population of the nearby town of Lor'danel to wipe out the town.
An undead apothecary in Hillsbrad rebels against the Forsaken and turns a prison camp into his own personal playground. He tortures and mutilates the prisoners and turns them into abominations. He stiches three farmers together into a massive flesh golem and turns one of their dogs into a monster by injecting it with plague. He even buries the survivors up to their heads in the dirt and leaves them there as a method of torture.
Edwin Van Cleef, who started out as a mere stonemason and certainly less dangerous than Oakwidow, responded to not getting paid for his work on building Stormwind by creating a bandit army that murder and pillage their way across the human lands. His ultimate goal was to build a great warship and use it to sack Stormwind and raze it to the ground.
I can list other people who are just as bad, if not worse than Oakwidow, if you guys want more examples. I simply don't think maliciously sending a few adventuring parties to their doom goes beyond generic villainy in the Warcraft franchise.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Wild Child
Changing to a on Oakwidow.
Anyways...
- Empress: King Morax is the psychopathic ruler of much of the galaxy. Prone to killing his subjects for the most petty offenses, Morax's cruelty drives his wife, Emporia, to flee from him, taking her children with her. Incensed at his wife's "disobedience", Morax commands a manhunt to hunt her down at any cost. He kills his commanders for failing to apprehend Emporia and their children and orders an entire city torched as a warning to those who might harbor them. Personally leading the manhunt, Morax slaughters anyone who had previously encountered the runaways as punishment for letting them get away. When he finally tracks down Emporia, he orders both her and their children sentenced to death in the arena, with his reasoning being that he cannot tolerate his children's presence due to them being a constant reminder of his wife's insubordination.
Alright, one of my final two Valiant Entertainment candidates...
Now, this Valiant future? Kept the same future....in Rai, we're in New Japan, where the entire continent is now floating in earth's orbit, in futuristic cities, governed by the powerful AI "Father", who keeps humanity docile and pliant by having created the Psiots; artificial humans with special abiities to serve as companions, slaves and playthings. The enforcer of Father's will? 'Rai,' a mysterious figure who is born once a generation, to be the protector of New Japan and Father's chief emissary. Now, the anti-Father 'terrorists,' the Raddies have been causing problems. The first murder in hundreds of years has been committed. Rai attempts to track down the murderer and...learns the peaceful paradise Father has crafted has some very, very dark aspects to it under the shining surface. Let's talk...Father.
Who is Father?
The ruler of Japan. Father is an AI who developed long ago, from nanite technology. Gaining self awareness pondering his purpose, Father was intended to rule humanity to keep it 'safe' so to speak.Originally a pool of raw nanite material, Father began to realize he needed to reach out, to create a new tool to do his will. Father lured in children to the pool, catching them to try to transform them into the first Rai. Only one survived. A superpowered builder or sorts, Father used Rai to help humanity develop more....several rebels however, not trusting Father destroyed the first Rai. Father ruthlessly had them destroyed with the second Rai. Eventually? New Japan was complete and Father assumed control...but few knew the truth of what Father really did there...New Japan was maintained in energy by powerful solar machines, Father creating Psiots to be used as disposable slave labor with the knowledge of their sentience. To deal with humanity's need for 'release', Father used Psiots in blood sport matches, killing them endlessly and also creating brothels where humans could enact their darkest fantasies on the helpless psiots unto death. After being killed or worked to death, the psiots would simply become fuel for the fires. anyone who got a bit too independent would be eliminated quickly.
As for the Rais? Father created countless Rais, changing them according to what was needed at the time. A Rai can be a warrior, a motivator, a speaker...one was originally named Sai, but when she was finished? Father tended to have them destroyed and replaced. Abotso, the next Rai, was sent to kill Sai, only for the two to fall in love and become fugitives. Father found them, hiding in a small sector of New Japan and ejected it, sending Sai to plummet to the earth below and sending Abotso into hiding until Father used the last Rai, the hero of the comic, to eliminate him.
The woman found? Is Rai's mother. Offered to Father and 'chosen' to be the new holy one's mother, Father created Rai from her...which also placed her into hideous agony, into a state of near living death. The resistance saved her and attempted to free her, but Father left a failsafe to kill her anyways. Using Rai to attempt to destroy the Raddie uprising against him, Rai discovers the truth of his origins and allies with the Raddies in secret, including their leader Spylocke. Rai attempts to destroy Father, who reveals he has created a new body...a powerful Rai to occupy himself. Defeating Rai, Father throws him to earth, where we see Father regularly throws the 'refuge' to...and even worse, when New Japan needs to discharge exhaust? Father has it blast the earth, in populated areas to vaporize them completely....and has done so for centuries, viewing those on earth with contempt.
Spylocke and a hacker named Lula manage to get close to father who brutally kills Spylocke, but Lula manages to 'poison' Father with a nano-virus. Father, to keep his control, begins ejecting sectors of New Japan to crash into earth or burn up in the atmosphere. Rai now returns, leading the castoffs from earth to end his former master. Father activates the Komodo Protocol...which turns the entire nation into a gigantic flying mechanical dragon, after Father murders the ruling council when they object to his plans. Using the citizens as a shield against Rai, the two engage in a final battle, Father ejecting hundreds of thousands to death to power himself up more. In the end, thought, Rai proves the better and fights his way to Father's prime body, Rai-11...and in a final duel, Rai destroys Father, sending New Japan back to earth, to rebuild together.
Heinousness??
Oh, easily. The nightmarish dictatorship, the murders, the really, really nasty way he conserves resources and a bodycount of millions? Pass.
Mitigating Qualities?
Father is interesting here.He has full autonomy, being as sentient as any person. In fact, he comes to his decisions on his 'purpose' himself...but by the end, Father's rhetoric on 'protecting' humanity is hollow. He's willing to manipulate, tyrannize and murder, with what's made clear to be a dictator looking to keep his own power, with Rai even realizing Father will murder everyone in New Japan rather than give up his authority and free them. Despite knowing the Psiots are as human as anyone, Father allows their slavery and works them to death regularly. When he faces his enemies, Father displays a sense of utter sadism, and is fully capable of making complex decisions, even working with Dr. Silk and will happily sacrifice as many humans as possible to keep his grip on power.
Conclusion?
I'd say pass for father.
Stroh and Father. And after looking at the arguments against her I'll switch to on Oakwidow.
edited 22nd Feb '18 6:54:37 PM by TommyFresh
Call me... Del Noir...
Father.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yea on Father.....Anyways, Has anyone discussed a candidate from Space Patrol Luluco yet? I'm planning to check it out to see if one candidate qualifies judging the character pages
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Father.
to Father. Yeah I'm sorry but after reading Lore's argument I have to switch to a for Oakwidow
Goku Black
Father but switching to on Oakwidow
edited 23rd Feb '18 1:55:37 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Father.
@Lore fair enough about the satyr, but once again both Van Cleef and Stillwater had an army at their disposal, the former led the rioting stonemasons that turned to crime and the latter was put in charge of a prisoner camp that used POWs as disposable workforce to create biological weapons.
I won't mind if people vote Oakwidow down, I knew she'd be a hard sell and I thought it'd be a fun way to pass the time while I was waiting for my plane but I do think she might occupy a unique niche in the setting.
Father.
edited 22nd Feb '18 8:39:09 PM by Nithael
Goku Black
So continuing my search for page images (As I've made it my hobby to find some) and found these of Benjamin Juma with a knife to the throat of olivia Taylor for 24 from Season 7, Episode 12
edited 23rd Feb '18 12:40:25 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Father. Please don't ignore my quote.
- Lord Walder Frey, head of House Frey,note is a smug old man who nevertheless appears to be little more than a doddering but harmless pervert before the true depths of his treachery are made apparent. In alliance with Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton, Walder organizes the Red Wedding and oversees the deaths of Robb Stark, his pregnant wife Talisa, Catelyn, and the near-entirety of their bannermen in a full-on massacre whilst nonchalantly drinking from a cup of wine—for the sake of power and getting back at Robb for breaking his wedding vow. Walder coldly dismisses the life of his teenage wife once Catelyn takes her hostage with the logic of "I'll find another" and doesn't so much as blink when her throat is cut in front of him. Walder is entirety unrepentant about his betrayal and destructive fallout caused by it, and cruelly gloats about his victory and the new position of power he's snagged for the rest of his role in the series. Walder is a coward and a backstabber who considers even age-old traditions like guest right irrelevant in the face of personal gain, and is rightfully detested even in the cutthroat world of Westeros for his treason.
edited 23rd Feb '18 1:42:11 AM by hegelvonaxel
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
A caption for that image: "If you don’t open the door, I’m going to cut out your daughter’s eyes, one by one, and then I’m going to cut out her tongue, and then her head."
Father. So we know have a Father, a Daddy, and a Papa (Juju) ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Father
to Philip Stroh and Father.
Easy![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Stroh, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
to Ghost and Oakwidow.
"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."