During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Well, never thought THIS character would be brought up.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Chocula, no matter how much I love his cereal.
Count Chocula with ease. I had some once, and like most chocolate cereals, found it totally disgusting and without redeeming qualities.
...oh, wait, you mean the Breakfast of the Gods version? Yeah, him too.
Me Listening to You RN
Messenger from another dimension.
Chocula
Like reflections in the glass!
There will be Brawl! Shed! The man in the mirror nods his head...
Okay now that I got that out of my system I shall give a to Count Chocola and ask if TWBB has any C Ms
edited 20th Jul '17 9:46:14 PM by MorningStar1337
After rewatching the Death Note movie, does anybody think the movie version of Light should be cut? At the beginning of the movie, he is shown to be frustrated with the justice system and displays a case of Even Evil Has Standards when one of his first victims brags about getting away with murdering a child.
Uhhhhhh ... Chocula.
Also, a belated R.I.P. to Chester Bennington. Not really a fan of Linkin Park, but it's still unfortunate 
edited 20th Jul '17 10:07:37 PM by Stellarvore
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No. Light's fundamental issue is that this 'standard' is hypocritical, hollow and pointless because he feels a revulsion towards crime out of a sense of superiority.
By the end of the films, he's far worse than anyone else and has lost all standards.
edited 20th Jul '17 9:53:49 PM by Lightysnake
We discussed this in the EP. An integral part of Light's character, in the film included, is how his standards decay. He stays.
Ninja'd. Quick moves, Lighty.
edited 20th Jul '17 9:55:30 PM by Scraggle
I normally don't vote on most candidates (I'm more of an observer who likes getting involved on works I really like), but seeing Count Chocula brought up made me read that EP more thoroughly than I read most of them. To the point where I feel comfortable giving him a .
Now that it's the 21st, I'll kick off discussion for Spider-Man: Homecoming. Shouldn't take too long.
Nobody counts. Not only does Adrian Toomes/Vulture, the Big Bad, have a bunch of mitigating factors such as caring about his wife and daughter or how he, out of gratitude for Peter saving his life, kept Peter really being Spiderman a secret from a criminal who wants to murder Spiderman, but he's possibly the least heinous Big Bad in the MCU so far with a body count of 1 (accidental at that) and other than theft and black market, the only bad thing he intentionally did was try to kill the protagonist. And all of his minions don't even come up to Toomes in terms of heinousness. Hell, Peter unintentionally does worse stuff than what Toomes and his minions do.
Maybe that Mac Gargan guy is worth keeping an eye out for the future since it looks like they're setting him up to be a villain in a later movie, but until then ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to anybody from Spider-Man: Homecoming
edited 20th Jul '17 10:28:10 PM by Awesomekid42
Ya. Toomes is quite literally the furthest villain away from this trope in a superhero film.
to Toomes the villain that is the complete opposite of a complete monster
to Chocula hey better than the Douche
edited 20th Jul '17 10:31:40 PM by G-Editor
616 Vulture was never that evil, so it makes sense that Homecoming Vulture fits the same mold. Vulture only gets evil in other realities like Noir or 2099.
Heck every Spider-Man movie seems to prefer sympathetic villains to evil ones.
And what the heck, I will say yes to Chocula.
to Count Chocula. Putting that in the category of sentences I never thought I'd type.
to Vulture. There was also being grateful to Peter for saving his daughter Liz too and giving him the chance to walk away from everything.
I know we're all all about this trope, but along with Vulture, we also got two other impressive tragic villains this year with Preston Packard and Buddy. Packard being one of the most sympathetic in years too.
I figured there might be a chance things with Ehtar and his sister would go the way they did, but it was worth a try.
Yeah, Toomes is one of the best MCU villains to date... but he's also one of the least evil.
Oh, Ravok, I'm a little surprised you didn't note the delightfully cruel irony in Chocula torturing the Rice Krispies trio. After all, what better way to get to them by snapping their fingers, burning their skin until it crackles, and popping out their bones?
I think it adds a nice little bit of Black Comedy that further convinces me this is really worth a read.
edited 21st Jul '17 2:54:14 AM by Scraggle
I...
Wha-
How would someone even come up with Breakfast of the Gods?
Anyway, with There Will Be Brawl precedent, I will vote . If TWBB wasn't a thing, I would probably be much less willing to do so.
The Birdman 2 antagonists.
I suppose I should talk about that Castlevania Netflix series. It was only 4 episodes and felt more like a third of a season, but I considered it a really strong first act and am hooked. That 8 episode second season can't come fast enough.
Anyway, on to candidates:
Nope.
No one counts.
Dracula, like his game counterpart, is one of the more sympathetic versions of the character, motivated by the unjust execution of his wife and his belief that Humans Are Bastards. He also has a Pet the Dog moment with an elderly neighbour his wife, Lisa, cared for, telling her to leave the country because he intends to destroy it.
Then there's the creepy Bishop. Doesn't count either. He seems to genuinely believe what he's doing is right - Trevor Belmont even has a line where he comes to this realisation in horror - and is not particularly heinous considering the horrible setting. He is the one who had Lisa executed and tries to have a group of Speakers - who are like Druids and other ancient, nomadic tribes - lynched, thinking that doing so will please God. That's pretty much the extent of his crimes, which even considering resources pales in the face of Dracula's summoning a horde of demons to massacre the population of a whole country.
No other villain bares mentioning. There are some Mook corrupt priests and an Elite Mook demon - probably based on a monster from the games sometimes called Pazuzu, often called a Lesser Demon - that has a pretty cool scene in a church where he gives that Bishop a nice Karmic Death, but no candidate among them.
An actually good adaptation of a video game, though. What a time to be alive...
Yeah, I have to agree that what we've seen of Castlevania so far kicks ass. Anyways, with the Bishop... I'm really not inclined to agree that his own delusions are truly mitigating (especially when he's hurling blame on Dracula's attacks because of his execution of Lisa on everyone except himself — he's just another one of those holier-than-thou dickmeisters) but I have to agree no one counts. The Bishop is hateable, loathsome and a very effective Hate Sink, but he's ultimately small potatoes who doesn't go over the baseline even with his level of resources.
Although... to be quite fair, now that we've seen just how gleefully brutal the series is willing to go, I wouldn't be surprised if some of Dracula's servants ended up worth discussion. Maybe not Death (as his Undying Loyalty to Dracula is a crucial part of him I can't really think can be excised without seriously screwing up the character) but Shaft? Carmilla? Hell, even maybe a version of Galamoth? These are all characters I can all easily see taking a few levels in evil if they're adapted.
Mind at all if I collab with you on future seasons, Polar? I'd be thrilled to do it as Castlevania is bar none one of my favorite game series' of all time and I'm quite impressed with how the adaptation's been so far. The night is still young for this series...
It's sort of a shame how nobody else really does seem to count from the main game series at the moment barring Lords!Satan. Many of the like seem to be either recurring Dracula servants with no real heinous deeds of their own, evil-or-brainwashed rivals (Hugh, Maxim, Albus) or batshit insane Dracula worshipers who, again, don't do enough (Barlowe, Celia). I think the closest we got deed-wise was Brauner (a mad vampire who murdered a man, brainwashed his daughters into thinking they were his own, and trying to exterminate the whole of humanity) but his past is so goddamned messed up it takes him far, far out of potentially counting for this trope. Never mind that his care for Stella and Loretta is, by all accounts, genuine... maybe Walter as well, but he largely fails the heinous standard.
I think the only character off the top of my head with any potential in counting for the games might be Elizabeth Bartley from Bloodlines... who kickstarts World War I to use the souls of everyone who dies to resurrect Dracula (and forces Eric Lecarde to murder his own vampirized lover for extra shits and giggles).
edited 21st Jul '17 3:46:44 AM by Scraggle
Messenger from another dimension.
EP Elizabeth Bartley. I always felt she suffered from lack of characterization but some backstory is given.
Yeah, characterization is my main hangup with her... considering Bloodlines is pretty thin on plot and I can't recall Elizabeth actually getting much in the way of dialogue (although she appears in-person plenty and there are a few flashes of cruelty about her... mainly the whole "forcing Eric to murder his own lover" thing).
Wasn't there some witch listed as well as Satan? Why was she cut?
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.I still prefer vanilla.