During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Series finale isn't two weeks old yet, so I don't think it's a good idea to think about characters from previous seasons yet.
edited 22nd May '17 3:13:53 PM by dragonfire5000
Nobody counts in the first four seasons.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"who kidnapped beings and forced them to fight to the death in gladiator games, but I don't know how he compares with the villains of the fifth season."
Scraggle and those who watch it can say more, but that seems pretty bad, especially since the 5th season was Darker and Edgier.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Well, there you have it
As for Thawn, did you count my yes (or yourself for that matter)? BTW, 7-4 is probably not QUITE close enough to include him; 1 or 2 more votes either way should settle it.
edited 22nd May '17 3:21:42 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Reserving Kamen Rider Ex-Aid. I'll say more at a later date, but after that time comes, expect no more from the show until two weeks after the finale. As finales for this franchise have been late September for nearly a decade, discussion will likely take place in early October if necessary.
A total has-been.
Not that I don't see some merit in discussing Marx, but the way it got started killed it immediately. I'm at the end of my rope with these users who don't understand how this thread works and seem to think that throwing in a random villain's name and a few of their crimes and worst qualities will get us all automatically nodding in agreement to put that villain on the trope. Does no one read the rules anymore?
I really don't think anything can be gained from discussing Marx. His deeds extend to making the sun and moon fight — which really has no harmful in-universe effect that can be seen aside from harmlessly switching the time from day to night — tries to take over Pop Star (for the purpose of spreading "mischief," the horror) and trying to kill Kirby. None of this is in any extent heinous enough.
Honestly, for the Kirby series, very few of the villains here are characterized enough for the trope, and those who are either aren't bad enough of have blatant redeeming qualities. Even renegade, omnicidal AI Star Dream, the most heinous character in the series at the moment (barring out the anime, naturally) is simply a classic case of AI going rogue without necessarily having malign motivation behind it — simply a horrible mistranslation of its mission statement. The series is fundamentally pretty kid-friendly and while the villains can get scary, as was just said, "scary" does note equate to "heinous."
edited 22nd May '17 4:05:39 PM by Scraggle
Yeah, I did include both are votes in the count (I know what you mean, I thought it was more as well, I was quite surprised when I got the results). And yeah, its not enough, but it is close, so if anyone can cast two or three more deciding votes it would put this matter to bed.
edited 22nd May '17 4:03:49 PM by MGD107
From what I've seen, AI Star Dream is simply a malfunctioning AI that has little, if any, moral agency. If Star Dream was being voted on today, I'd easily give him (and any other Kirby villains) a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
As for Samurai Jack, I don't think anyone would qualify from the first four seasons because they either lack moral agency or flunk the series' heinous standard. The fifth has one that might be worth discussing, but that's all I'll say about it until the two-week grace period is up.
edited 22nd May '17 5:12:25 PM by sanfranman91
Together, we are one.
Yeah, I wasn't bringing up Star Dream for discussion, just offering my two cents as a whole on the Kirby debacle.
Honestly, Kirby is going in the direction where it can have a Complete Monster, but doesn't have one yet. The only characters so far who even come close are the true villains of Triple Deluxe, but both can easily be thrown out the window - Sectonia, for all the terrible things she does, is the most tragic major villain in the series along with Haltmann, and Dark Meta Knight has almost all of his villainy (implied villainy, at that) offscreen.
The quote from Skull is hilarious. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Sure, both quotes get my ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Marx is a no for me btw.
Together, we are one.
Wait, that Skull quote was serious?
I thought it was a joke.
Honestly, I don't think it's appropriate. A little too archaic and hammy. And Narmy.
edited 22nd May '17 5:19:32 PM by PolarPhantom
Yeah I have been kind of thinking about Demongo ever since watching his episode. From my understanding he has enslaved the essence of dozens of warriors. Which could be argued to be a Fate Worse than Death. That said if he was created by Aku as a demon of darkness than yeah he would fail the moral agency test, like Aku himself.
Aku was the worst in the first 4 seasons even if you take resources into account.
Aku is the most heinous character in general, and the resource argument is a valid point since there is no way any of the other villains can get up to the kind of shit he's done.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I remember Aku as being genuinely Played for Laughs enough to miss this trope, though I dunno if the last season changed things.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
wouldn't matter. He's Made of Evil.
Yeah, once can make a case against the humorous bits, but not against his agency.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Happy Birthday DDD.
Marx.
I'll share my opinions on anything Samurai Jack related when the deadline hits.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
I'd still argue Aku's humor is too inconsistent. In some episodes he's still humorous but it leans toward the dark, threatening humor like Bill Cipher but in other episodes he's treated as a joke like Mojo Jojo type humor. The episode Jack vs Aku is a perfect example of him being played for straight up laughs. From ordering a "EXTRA THICC" pizza to offering to give Jack a ride. He's played almost completely for laughs in that episode.
edited 22nd May '17 6:26:07 PM by username2527
Again, probably best to wait until the deadline for Samurai Jack passes before discussing.
Just for seasons 1-4 to curtail this....
Aku cannot count and can never count for one simple reason: he utterly lacks moral agency. He's literally a mass of malevolent darkness given sentience and intelligence. At times, he's completely incapable of not screwing someone over just because it's his nature.
Lord of Hell
Definite no to the Red Skull quote. The fact that I thought you were joking when proposing it tells how hard it is for me to take it seriously.
Bligt's quote feels more fitting with But for Me, It Was Tuesday, but no real quams with that one.
Speaking of Samurai Jack, are there any villains from the first four seasons worth discussing? The worst that I can think of is Demongo, but since he's a minion of Aku who appears to be a demon, he might not have moral agency. The worst human character that I remember is the ringmaster from Jack and the Smackback, who kidnapped beings and forced them to fight to the death in gladiator games, but I don't know how he compares with the villains of the fifth season.
jjj