During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Happy Birthday.
I will say yes to the Muse.
I think Daredevil can suffer Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy because circumstances seems to conspire to ruin Daredevil's life every 5 years and he has 4 different dead girlfriends and one ex wife who was driven insane. It was actually refreshing in Waid's ruin when Bullseye tried to ruin Daredevi's life and utterly failed.
@ 75541 Hamburger Time, I would agree, but the Daredevil heinous standard can be high, There are villains like Johnny Sockets, Owl, Rotgut and Bushwhacker who are fairly heinous and don't count for one reason or another. There are unpleasant who fail this higher heinous standard: the Gale was a villain from the 80s who killed to kill for fun, but doesn't have a high body count compared to other DD villains There was a story where DD had to deal with a Red Neck from Alabama who killed his own son and framed a local teenager from the crime, insuring he gets the death penalty, who also tried to murder his own wife. That guy is a total scum bag but is not heinous enough to count. .
edited 14th Jan '17 10:27:14 PM by Overlord
The Unknown Unknown
@username: Happy birthday, and many more.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Happy birthday. Sorry it's a little late.
edited 15th Jan '17 12:42:51 AM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Lord of Hell
Ignoring how Redd White has far more than one suicide (An entire folder of suicides caused by Redd White is found by Phoenix in Mia's office, Phoenix just took one of them) I'm giving Callisto an easy ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
considering how she attempted to steer Edgeworth and the group on the right track by telling them that she didn't kill Coachen (It was really Alba) as a hint for them sounds like a fairly large redeeming quality, not to mention she acts as a Graceful Loser after Lang literally took a bullet for her.
Anyway, question for the thread: I know that people can't effort post candidates from their own stories, but would it be fair game to effort post a candidate from a story of a relative of theirs?
edited 14th Jan '17 11:56:33 PM by Awesomekid42
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Username: Happy Birthday.
I guess that's fine? Technically you didn't write it.
Klavice, do us all a favor and stop endlessly revisiting a few franchises. Find a new series to propose from.
No to Callista.
Callista
Lord of Hell
Nothing wrong with proposing from the same franchise. But if there's no fresh candidates to bring up or no arguments to go against why previously proposed candidates didn't count, that's when there's an actual issue.
My issue is revisiting the same ones over and over and over and proposing seemingly every villain with very poor arguments for their inclusion
So even if I was to suggest for a proposal say, another Grand Cardinal from the Desians in Tales of Symphonia, I couldn't do that because it's not a new series?
I know Yggdrasil doesn't count for being a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, but the same can't be said for some of the Desian Grand Cardinals besides Kvar and Rodyle who are already on the list. Magnius was a puppet, but the other two particularly the leader, seems to be very much in control of their situation and have ordered some pretty horrible things. Did we talk about the leader of the Desian Grand Cardinals yet? I hear she's pretty nasty. Keep in mind I haven't gotten too far in Tales of Symphonia and I'd love to propose them when I reach that point but I just want to know if they have been discussed before.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
RIP Toriyama
Happy B-day, username!
'No' to Callista
Now, I've got an....odd inquiry. There's this character who is SICKO. I'm talking mass child murdering, decapitating, terrorist attacks sicko who commits all his crimes for kicks, with squat in redeeming features or legit excuses.
Here's the thing though. This maniac gets captured and brutally tortured/experimented on by a group of doctors whose sole goal is to remove his capacity for violence. After ten years of this, the killer's ability to even defend himself with violence has been completely removed, and he's had a new love of people and peace implanted in him, and he proceeds to become a consulting detective who helps save people's lives and such as the main character of the story, all while fighting to keep his "killer" side repressed.
So, all this leads to my question: Could this be considered not disqualifying, seeing as his new mindset was forced on him through experimentation and torture, or is the fact that he becomes a Friend to All Living Things after the whole "Ten years of experiments" thing too disqualifying?.
edited 15th Jan '17 12:54:04 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- I'm...honestly not sure. Though I am curious-what's the character and from what work?
- Abattoir is 4-1 so far.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Muse. Granted, he's no headless Sex Slave creator like Coyote, but still bad enough.
- Happy b-day username!
edited 15th Jan '17 1:03:16 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lord of Hell
"So even if I was to suggest for a proposal say, another Grand Cardinal from the Desians in Tales of Symphonia, I couldn't do that because it's not a new series?"
Ok, while I believe that Lighty should have worded that more tactfully, that's not what s/he meant. S/He's sick of tropers digging deep down through franchises repeatedly and grasping for reasons for a candidate to qualify, especially if the candidate was brought up before. It would be incredibly inconvienient for there to be a rule for "Only one candidate from a franchise per troper" along with incredibly hypocritical of Lighty if s/he actually meant that considering s/he effortposted four candidates from Mortal Kombat.
edited 15th Jan '17 1:55:33 AM by Awesomekid42
Weekly effortpost schedule:
- Keoma—Thirsday
Lord of Hell
If the change was brought by force, then I'd say it wouldn't be disqualifying. We have Darkrai from the mystery dungeon games. He changed his ways, but only because Palkia wiped his memories, changing him by force.
That - except, honestly, it's less "tropers" generically than it's Klavice, who has been called out (and even admitted themselves) about having a problem with this. It's not a rule, just some common sense.
edited 15th Jan '17 4:11:56 AM by nrjxll
Muse. Holy crap he's horrifying.
As for the Heel–Face Brainwashing thing... Hmmm.
We kept pre Axis Carnage and Sabretooth, but this seems a little different...
...Damnit, I can't make a decision.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
When Ravok brought that up, was I the only one who thought it sounded like a more extreme version of A Clockwork Orange?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Ravok: That sounds kinda similar to what happens to the "protagonist" in Criminal. I'm not entirely sure I'd be able to give someone like that a pass.
Now, if it turns out later on that the torture and experimenting didn't work and he reverts back to his old ways...
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
For subpage links, I think TV looks pretty good; we can probably keep all except maybe Disney.
edited 15th Jan '17 7:32:48 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone. This is my 20th birthday so I am currently celebrating my end of teen day with a lobster breakfast.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wow, 20. I feel so old at 33 
Any more votes on Abattoir?
edited 15th Jan '17 8:41:26 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
33 isn't that old. If you keep up with your hygiene, eat healthy, and don't abuse drugs/alcohol you will still look like you just came out of your teens.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
True, but compared with the other board members here,,,
Happy b-day.