Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I think we can have some fun well doing this.

Fair enough, but I was simply using that Red Skull example to ask a broader question.

We have examples from wacky settings like Galaxy Quest, Dark Wing Duck and Power Puff Girls, so I was using that Red Skull example to ask the questions, when do settings get too silly, despite the villain being serious enough?

edited 23rd Aug '16 7:53:08 PM by Overlord

It entirely depends if the show takes the villain seriously. If it doesn't, then it's too overall silly. If it does, then they can potentially count, after the fit the other basic criteria, of course(base heinousness, not outdone by others in the same specific universe...).

And we've had villains who might otherwise qualify but who were undermined by the sheer ridiculousness of their setting; Grandfather from Kids Next Door and the crazy taxidermist from the Paddington movie come to mind here.

Fair enough, I think according to the basic standards that version of Red Skull could count, but even I am not really interested in proposing him, perhaps I am biased against certain settings as well. I guess examples like this can often come down to one's personal feelings and biases, measuring the seriousness of the villain to the silliness of the setting can be a bit of a personal judgment call.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:16:59 PM by Overlord

To be fair, the Paddington villain didn't really meet the heinous standard anyways.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:03:04 PM by Clown-Face

Thank you for posting this. "Not fun" does not by any means equal "being a jerk is okay", but there's sort of a tendency sometimes to treat this almost as some kind of social thread revolving around a favorable view of the Complete Monster as a villain type, which is missing the point.

I disagree, I think something like this can be fun, this shouldn't feel like a chore, its not like anyone here is getting paid, if its not fun to a certain extent, then you are just doing a job you are not getting paid for. Isn't entertainment the whole point of this website in general?

I also think my point about this thread needing a little more civility, which I think would be more enjoyable for everyone.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:52:06 PM by Overlord

It doesn't feel like a chore or anything - if it did I'd leave - but one of the major reasons I continue to participate in this thread is because it's not fun for me. I think it's useful for something like this to have a wide variety of perspectives, including one that (generalizing) doesn't think that highly of Complete Monster as a trope.

I don't mean to start a big debate or anything here, which is why I've never brought this up on my own. I just wanted to thank Irene for the reminder, because sometimes I do feel like that idea gets lost. (It's why I've said before that I think we should prioritize fixing existing bad examples a little more than proposing new ones).

edited 23rd Aug '16 9:17:15 PM by nrjxll

Yes, civility and open-mindedness would be nice - the last thing we want to encourage on a group effort is hostility.

Frankly, I think the most significant factor of why I stay on this thread is because it's a satisfying habit of mine.

@Demon Duck She might count if the worst things have primarily happened specifically because of what she did. Creating the vampires would make her responsible for what they do.

Certain villains because of how unapologetic and joyful they are may seem pure evil, but the fact is what they do, how they do it and why (which there'll be no reason often or not a good one) play a big part in it. It also has to stand out as awful in a universe in which you can take it seriously.

Stuff like Peanuts, Sponge Bob, South Park and Austin Powers would not, could not treat a villain's crimes seriously enough. The tone would get in the way. With Wild Wild West, the tone doesn't get in the way of how terrible what Loveless did is because it overshadows the absurdities of the film.

I'm not sure what you mean by "creating the vampires." We don't know if she's the Monster Progenitor of the vampire race, but she is responsible for the case of vampirism seen in the film, and it's shown that there's a pattern of such things.

Anybody else have thoughts on Carmilla?

Do her vampires end up killing people?

DDD, please add the tweaked Ewell entry to the drafts.

All of this information is in the effortpost.

Done.

If we're doing one per book Arianna may not measure up but as a series whole....she's above Victor Sells, Denton, Kravos, Aurora, The apprentices of Kemmler, the proven guilty baddies, the guys in white night. She's at least up there with Shagnasty and Nicodemus in sadism and in terms of sheer misery she inflicts on the protagonists She's near unparalleled. We also arrive at the temple....the stairs are literally stained with the blood of the hundred people murdered for the spell.

The only real competition in the book is her own father, Big Red, and Big Red has more power to carry out his ambitions.

edited 24th Aug '16 1:23:55 AM by LordYAM

@Scraggle: That's more or less why I'm here, and how it should be.

The way I see it, this forum is a hobby, nothing more. We're all here because we enjoy what we do. We're not doing it for fun, per say, but I think the better term is enjoyment (or satisfaction to some extent). That being said, it's not like we have no fun in this forum whatsoever, since I recall several users expressing how happy they were to see Ramsay Snow get axed less than twenty-four hours after his demise, despite knowing we had to wait two weeks.

Keep in mind, I said "hobby." I did not say "chore." If this forum is doing nothing but messing up your schedule or consuming too much valuable time from your personal life, or if you feel like you don't want to be in this forum doing what we do, then by all means, go on hiatus, or stop altogether. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't wanna do. Which is why I still haven't bothered watching the first half of Season 3 of 24.

Like me, for instance, I'm not sitting here saying "Oh gee, I gotta watch all of Strike Back now because I'm obligated to for the sake of finding CMs." I'm telling myself, "Someone out there was kind enough and smart enough to make Call of Duty into a TV show and gather a group of writers together to ensure that it doesn't suck ass. And now I get to sit here and watch five seasons of this awesome, awesome, brilliant show."

I, too, consider this cleanup a hobby.

If nothing else, this cleanup has introduced me to NUMEROUS works I would not've been aware of otherwise.

Yeah, I agree Hobby is probably a better description. Honestly I never really thought about what visiting this form is, I just always enjoyed doing so since I discovered it existed. Really though you could argue that this entire website is at the core for fun. After all hundreds of different fans (or alternatively not-fans) of multiple different works coming together to examine, report and discuss what they love and what the hate for the benefit of other users. What other motivation is their to do that then the fact you enjoy it?

I do think we are arguing semantics here, most people engage in hobbies because they find them fun. Enjoyment and fun are interlinked concepts, its why I usually only propose characters who fit my interests. TV Tropes itself is supposed to be a fun site.

For example, it looked like the bad guy from The Postman could have counted, but to find that out, I have to watch the Postman and I don't feel like doing that. The only reason to watch that movie is if its so bad its good, rather then so bad its horrible.

edited 24th Aug '16 4:53:11 AM by Overlord

To take the proposal that sparked this conversation somewhat seriously: the real problem with any Spiderman and his Amazing Friends villain is that the most heinous ones are all at somewhat the same relative heinous level; they want to rule the world, they have some master plan involving a super weapon that could theoretically kill a bunch of people but doesn't, and whenever given the chance to kill or even hurt the heroes, they instead put them in a deathtrap.

Red Skull trying to use a nuke to start a proxy World War 3 doesn't really stand out that much from the Green Goblin trying to use a serum to turn New York into goblins that will become his own army or Kraven trying to make an army of giant dinosaurs to take over New York.

So, it's been two weeks since the third season finale of Steven Universe meaning that it's time for me to report back: are there any qualifiers this season?

Well the short answer is nope, so see you all next season.

The long answer though? No, but all three potential monsters that I've had my eyes on are still valid candidates: Yellow Diamond (Especially), Blue Diamond, and White Diamond, the three ruling matriarchs of the Gem Homeworld known as the Diamond Authority. They're a trio of fascist, oppressive galactic conquerors who oversee an abusive caste system and expand their territory by basically strip-mining inhabited planets into dead, lifeless husks and claim what's left as a Gem colony. Now we haven't seen anything of White yet (Hell, she hasn't even been mentioned, we only know that she exists due to her symbol's presence in the trio's insignia and the fact that she's portrayed in several murals), but both Blue and Yellow are pretty nasty from what we've seen: Blue flew into a murderous rage and ordered a low-ranking soldier of hers killed on the spot for fusing with a member of her court... despite saving that court member's life, and it's heavily suggested that she had something bad in store for said court member as well.

Yellow however is just plain awful. So far, her deeds consist of:

• Overseeing the creation of an enormous superweapon called the Cluster, which is formed by millions of Gem shards (basically the broken, dead bodies of other Gems, mainly the rebellious Crystal Gems) that are forcibly fused and melded together. Yellow had it buried underground, and once it takes on a physical form and emerges it will destroy the Earth. And keep in mind: the Gems that consist of the Cluster are alive and aware, and once Steven tells them that they'll destroy the Earth if they take a form, they're horrified when they realize that they can't stop themselves from forming.

• Along with the Cluster, Yellow Diamond oversaw the creation of countless Gem mutants that were prototypes to the Cluster: they're smaller and made with fewer shards, but the Gems that make them up are trapped in an agonizing existence. If you couldn't tell right now, Yellow is very fond of using the concept of And I Must Scream as both a weapon and a punishment.

• Trying to murder her former lackey Peridot over an insult by detonating a communicator with an enormous blast radius.

• Wanting to destroy the Earth outright instead of keeping it around to exploit its resources. What makes this heinous is that Homeworld is suffering from a resource shortage that's causing Gems to be born weaker than they should, and yet Yellow Diamond is willing to deny her people a planet brimming with resources just to get revenge on Steven's mother for the rebellion she staged millenia ago.

And that's just going into her deeds, as far as her personality goes she's shown to be a hateful, petty, selfish, thin-skinned, genocidal racist who openly holds organic life in contempt and is shown to be condescending and uncaring at best to her followers. The only decent thing you can say about her is that she's willing to let Peridot redeem herself (albeit before trying to kill her in a homicidal fit of rage) for her failures and tried to recover her minion Jasper from Earth, but it comes off as far more pragmatic than anything: why waste the lives of henchmen who are still able to serve you, especially in light of a resource shortage? It should be noted that the whole time while she's talking to Peridot before trying to kill her, she's nothing but rude, snippy, callous, and dismissive.

So yeah, it's too early to make the judgement call on anyone yet, but I'm positive that at least one of the Diamonds will count by the time their arcs are over, with Yellow being the one that I'm almost positive will count. I'll be keeping my eye on all three of them and will report back once Season 4 is over. Which may take a few years knowing this show's awful airing schedule. D:

I'd actually say there's nothing remotely redeeming about Yellow Diamond's initial treatment of Peridot, given how she acts towards her. She dehumanizes Peridot, refers to her with no individuality, and despite Jasper being the 'Perfect' example of her type, Yellow Diamond just asks what happened to 'the Jasper' with disinterest.

For Jasper herself, I'd argue she's a genuinely Tragic Villain now. It's very hard not to pity her.

I was talking it over with Scraggle, but I felt that Pink Diamond being shattered by Rose Quartz possibly gives Yellow Diamond a motivation for wanting the Earth destroyed beyond pettiness for the rebellion. Of course, it's too early to tell.

edited 24th Aug '16 7:07:26 AM by AustinDR

@Lighty: Oh man, Jasper really is a tragic character: she's pretty much the Gem equivalent of a fully-grown child soldier whose life has been a conga-line of humiliation and failures despite being an Ultimate Quartz, and there's the whole Pink Diamond thing. I personally never thought that she'd count (Even before her mitigating factors showed up she was just an asshole brute who didn't do anything that would make her iredeemable), but her past few episodes really hit her hard with the Jerkass Woobie treatment.

@Austin DR: Maybe, but you could easily argue that Yellow's hatred for Earth could stem from it serving as a humiliating reminder that the Diamonds were nearly whipped by a lower-caste Quartz. Considering that Pink Diamond seems to have suffered from a case of Unpersoning who is only remembered by veterans like Jasper or Eyeball, I wouldn't say for sure that Yellow cared for Pink. Of course, that could change in Season 4.

edited 24th Aug '16 7:09:32 AM by FriedWarthog