During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
Plus Brony99 even said that he wanted a MLP villian in there because he thought it would be awesome for the show.
Let's not derail this into a discussion on him, please.
Anyway, the point is that we simply can't trust these pages to have examples added at will without causing more misuse.
I wear no mask.
To get back on the topic of the wrestling subpage, I think it's all pretty good so far, but one small thing is nagging me: while it's all well and good that we only put in wrestlers who've retired, what about the personas? If the same wrestler had more than one CM kayfabe persona (unlikely, but still possible IMO), should we lump'em or split'em?
EDIT: Oh, and the anime/manga page just looks ridiculously awkward in its present state. It should have been completed long ago (been like this for months) or not been made like this at all in the first place; unfortunately I don't have a lot of free time to take care of it myself right now. Anybody want to try?
edited 11th Jan '12 6:31:52 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
If the persona's are treated as entirely different characters, we can include them seperately, the same way that we would seperate different characters all played by the same actor.
I wear no mask.
Sounds good to me.
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Think of the mooks!
Only thing is, I would hesitate to do a write-up of a retired persona if the man behind the persona is still wrestling. While it isn't happening all over the place, gimmicks can be brought back (Mick Foley is perhaps the most well-known example of a wrestler who brought back old personae). We potentially then have the same issue that we'd have in doing write-ups of currently active personae.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Which is why we specified Wrestler and not Persona. Besides, the same could be said of any character on the CM list; they could be brought back in a later story and is given a well-written tale of redemption thus taking them off the list. In this case though if a wrestler has legitimately retired, we can feel free to add them to the list.
Think of the mooks!
I was specifically responding to @479, where he asked about personae.
As for Anime/Manga, I'd rather hit the subpages first, since those will be faster.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Okay my deadline for the listed pages is almost up, so I need to know; are we still locking these pages once we're done with them? Cam doesn't seem to agree since the Professional Wrestling page is still unlocked.
Bumping again. Are we locking pages as we're done with them still?
EDIT: Fighteer responded to my PM and confirmed that we are.
edited 15th Jan '12 8:47:35 PM by Shaoken
Just checking to see if people are still alive.
Fighteer locked the GTA, Mass Effect, Fable, Fallout, Metal Gear, Tabletop Games and Professional Wrestling pages, so we have two entire types of works done and cleaned, and several video game pages done. So we're making some progress on this front.
I think it's time we tackle a huge page to prove the concept can work. I vote either Anime and Manga or the Comic Book one, but that's just me. It'd be best if we do one were we all have to work together to make a stronger trope article.
Well, I personally would be no good at Anime/Manga, as I'm unfamiliar with the source material.
Right, that is perhaps the biggest problem with all this. There are going to be times where none of us have seen the work in question to make a judgement call. Hopefully if we're reviewing what's already on the page there should be enough detail in the entry to give us a good idea on it. Since they're supposed to be self-demonstrating anyway, we should delete examples that don't explain why the character is a Complete Monster.
Think of the mooks!
Question - beginning to go through the Anime/Manga pages with an eye for clean-up, and I noticed that some of those pages are pretty sparse (worst offender is for Yakitate Japan - while I agree on everything there, that doesn't change the fact that there's only one entry, and the series is finished). What should be the minimum number of entries that should exist before a subpage is made?
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
So if the example doesn't provide enough detail to be sure if it counts, we remove it? Works for me.
I'd say three at least, preferably more.
I agree with nrjxl, three is the cut-off, anything less and we cut it and bring the examples back to the main list.
Yep. Now my only question is do we blank the page first like Hidden Faced Matt said, or do we just go about it as is?
I'll start the ball rolling with the first entry on the main page;
- The creator of Basilisk really loves creating these. The Yagyu Ninja Scrolls brings us a full cast of complete monsters in Akinari Kato and his Seven Spears. Kato? Is a tyrannical daimyo who has women kidnapped and raped and will frequently kill or maim them in fits of rage. When he's done? He gives them to the Spears who rape and torture them to death. At the series start, the Spears drag the captive men of the Hori clan to their wives, mothers and daughters... and proceed to butcher the women horribly until they're stopped, leading to the series' Roaring Rampage of Revenge. Throughout the series, they commit many more atrocities. One can only cheer when series resident hero and badass Jubei Yagyu Turns Akinari into a eunuch with a well aimed sword slash in a Crowning Moment Of Awesome.
Raping and torturing, and showing off this work to the victim's loved ones. Pretty evil, but is it CM evil? And what are these further atrocities?
Well, let's take a look at our criteria:
- The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.
- The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story.
- They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.
From what description we have, they seem to meet 2 and 3, but the "creator really likes creating these" makes 1 a little more questionable.
That does make it stick out, but we should limit it to just the work, unless the creator makes works in a shared universe. If it's the former, this one can stay, the latter and we'll need to wait to make a verdict.
EDIT: Checked out the Balisk page, it's only got one entry. I propose cutting it and taking that entry to the main page.
edited 20th Jan '12 7:27:45 PM by Shaoken
Well, my impression is that by "the creator likes creating these" they meant that there are multiple alleged complete monsters in the work - which makes 1 questionable, as that suggests a higher standard is needed to qualify.
And the page should definitely be cut, if there's only one entry.
edited 20th Jan '12 7:43:35 PM by nrjxll
I wear no mask.
I always interpreted the line about liking to create complete monsters being more about the fact that he'd created some in works other than Basilisk, personally.
And as for the need to more strongly qualify, there's the fact that it's mentionned he's the boss of the Seven Spears (who themselves aren't named in the entry), who'd qualify for the trope if they were each lone villains. And rape and torture both tend to be part of the MO of many CMs, and are often enough on their own to make character this trope if the reasons for such acts are lacking and/or horrible enough.
A guy who gleefully orders other potential monsters in committing their atrocities and partakes in them himself has a pretty good case in his favor IMO, as that would clearly show him as even worse than his henchmen.
edited 22nd Jan '12 3:56:27 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Just on a similar topic, over at the TRS we can delete any subpage that has less than three entries. So after we do the main page we can add any good entries from the subpages to the main list.
Okay, the first entry is on the "keep" list from now, so let's keep moving;
- Keith White in Project ARMS. He is willingly the head of a research group that uses humans (usually children) as test subjects for painful, unethical, and often deadly experiments. When Alice asks if she and the children could just see the outside world for a second, he hits her. He then has all of the children shot which leads to Alice being shot and merged with an alien lifeform, something which he shows absolutely no sorrow or regret over. When a colleague denounces the experiments as unethical, Keith laughs at him. Then, he later creates multiple child clones of himself and implants them with nanotechnology, causing most to turn into monsters and die painfully. Even later, he shows up taking over Keith Black's body and is thrilled at the thought of Alice launching a nuclear missile and driving the Jabberwock to blow up America with anti-matter. When Keith Violet tries to talk him out of it, he tosses her off of a building. Top that all off with him kidnapping Katsumi possessed by Alice to get her to be taken over by the ARMS Bandersnatch and freeze the entire world. He kills Keith Blue, his son, with absolutely no remorse.
I'd say he'd fit unless he had a HELL of a good reason for these experiments.
edited 22nd Jan '12 9:53:16 PM by Shaoken
Offhand, I also say it fits, but it could use a rewrite - the spoiler level makes it look like a CIA document or something. Eeesh.
How about this;
- Kieth White from Project ARMS heads up a research group that conducts painful, unethical and and often deadly experiments on humans (mostly children). His response to one of his subjects asking to see the outside world for a second is to hit her, then have them all shot, resulting in Alice merging with an alien lifeform. His actions only get worse from there, showing no remorse and the amount of lives destroyed by his actions.
How's that?
