During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Perhaps not in your eyes, but then again, I brought it to the thread for a reason.
Lizzid people!
Really, it's Carl's father's fault that his son became a serial killer, even if he didn't ave the foreknowledge that that would happen to his son because of his abuse on his son. Therefore, he meets the heinous standard, because he was ultimately the reason as to why his son was the way he was now. Everything in the film can, therefore, be his fault. Normally, a child abuser isn't a CM, but if I'm reading this right, Carl's father was extreme with the abuse of his son, so I think he could count because of that. Also, how is not almost drowning a child when he was a baby not heinous enough?
When the son becomes a crazy serial killer who kills a lot of people via drowning.
When it comes to comparing the two, I see it like this. Carl himself certainly has a worse rap sheet when it comes to the level of vllainy (mass murder of women, after all) but he's' far too sympathetic and morally divided a character. His father, on the other hand, might not have killed anyone, but he's far worse of a character. Considering how little we see of him and his limited number of resources, he was as heinous as the film could let him be, and went beyond the call of just "a normal child abuser" in my opinion.
Lizzid people!
Especially the fact that he broke his son's ribs, and branded him with an iron. Again, Carl, while he may be a remorseless Serial Killer, he at least had a reason to become the way he is now. It's hard to hate Carl for what he does once you realize what his father was like to him. Pretty much, isn't the audience being disgusted at the father's character supposed to be in the criteria as well? If the audience felt sorry for Carl despite him being a mass murdering psychopath, then it'd be hard for him to be seen as anything but evil.
edited 29th Aug '14 4:57:25 PM by AustinDR
From what I remember, all of Jeffrey's murders are Offscreen Villainy without the viewer even seeing the results of the crimes. The only things we see onscreen are holding a guy hostage and killing his dog, which technically gets a Gory Discretion Shot. Plus, I remember him having a really warped... affection, for the demon that used to possess him. So, I'm gonna say no on Jeffrey.
EDIT: Also, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Carl's father. Carl is more heinous, plus, it wasn't his father's intention to turn Carl into a Serial Killer so it's not like he intended all of Carl's victims to die.
edited 29th Aug '14 5:23:11 PM by occasionalexister
Lizzid people!
Again, he was still responsible for what his son became, even if he didn't see the outcome of it. However, this will be my last discussion of this character, since I don't wish for this chat to go on a few more pages.
Then I'll give a no vote to Carl's father as well for losing out to his son in heinousness.
To Carl's father. If he wasn't trying to turn his son evil, it's not part of his own sheet.
on Carl's father.
I'll throw a for Carl's Father for the reasons already provided.
Lizzid people!
We can all safely say that he crossed the MEH, though.
Also, I may have to change my vote for Warren T. Rat, though, mostly because the other American Tail antagonists did more than he did.
edited 29th Aug '14 8:45:32 PM by AustinDR
I'm curious. who did more? And were they on the same level as resources and ability?
Lizzid people!
Wasn't there discussions about the other antagonists partaking in slavery and an attempted mouse genocide?
In the case with Warren, attempting to set the mice on fire doesn't sound as worse as an attempted genocide on the mouse species. Sorry.
edited 29th Aug '14 9:17:37 PM by AustinDR
See, I'm gonna have to ask about that since I didn't even know there was a third, fourth. Even then, the sequels were considerably sillier. And Warren clearly doesn't have the resources for that. Trying to kill every mouse in New York city there he can should be heinous
Lizzid people!
Again, I have to humbly disagree with you on this one, Lightysnake. Again, I am sorry.
Ah, well. Happens. There is an example I'd like to propose now, from the Call of Juarez series.
The titular villain: Juan "Juarez" Mendoza
Who Is He and What's He Do??
The most infamous criminal in Mexico. Juarez is a Mexican bandit and crime lord who rules his territory with an iron fist and loves flaunting both his wealth and his lover Marisa. Juarez seduces the Mccall brothers Thomas and Ray to his side with promises of wealth and gets them to exterminate the gang of his rival Devlin.
After this, we discover what a greedy prick Juarez is. A group of Apache are attempting to purchase weaponry so they stand a chance against the government. Juarez makes sure they receive 300 defective rifles, so the apaches will be slaughtered. Juarez eventually betrays the brothers and hands them over to their former commanding officer from the Civil War (they deserted). The youngest brother,a god-fearing lad named William is captured and interrogated by Juarez as Juarez is seeking an old treasure he thinks William holds the key to...after trying to have William killed, he decides to sell Marisa into slavery , declaring her a worthless whore for trying to escape him. When she reveals she's pregnant with Juarez's child, it changes nothing.
At the game's end, Juarez duels Ray and is shot, falling into the deep waters in an underground cavern. His body isn't found...and he returns 16 years later to exact revenge. He murders Marisa and her husband Thomas. To make it worse, he has her raped by his men. He later tries to hunt down Marisa's son Billy (his son) as Billy unknowingly knows where the gold he seeks is. He holds Billy's girlfriend hostage and tries to murder her for the info. When Billy tries to rescue her, Juarez tries to burn them both alive.
When this fails, Ray Mccall, now a Badass Preacher arrives to save the day, but Juarez shoots him down and tries to kill Billy and Molly before Ray summons enough strength in his dying moments to shoot Juarez down.
Juarez sets the heinous standard. He's the Big Bad of the whole series and commits the worst actions. No excuse except greed is ever given.
edited 29th Aug '14 11:58:17 PM by Lightysnake
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Juarez, sounds like an easy keeper.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
on Juarez, but two questions:
1) What's with selling defective rifles? Cheaper?
2) Who's Molly?
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
BTW, I'll plan to submit Pocket!Zod tomorrow morning (which probably means later today ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
).
edited 30th Aug '14 3:05:48 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Jaurez has my vote
Molly was Billy's love interest. I don't know much about the defective rifles, because I hadn't played that game, but it sounds to me that it was to give the government an advantage.
edited 30th Aug '14 5:12:08 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Juarez. Easy keep.
MENDOZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Lizzid people!
for Juarez.
I'll also vote yes on Juarez.
While it makes him an irredeemable scumbag, that doesn't necessarily make him a complete monster