Because Kinkajou told me to.
So yeah, anything about Final Fantasy! I guess this would make a good starting point: Which are your favorite games in the series and why?
My two all-time favorites are tied between Final Fantasy V and Final Fantasy IX. They're both very fun games that don't take themselves too seriously while still being legitimately emotional. On top of that, Zidane is my favorite Final Fantasy lead in the entire series. He's light-hearted, fun, and a generally nice guy to be around. FFV also has the advantage of having one of, if not the best, Job System in an FF game. Both FFV and FFIX make characters customizable while keeping them all unique in their own way. I'm also very fond of Final Fantasy I; it hasn't aged well, but it's classic, and like FFV, I played it tons as a kid.
I assume we'll drift around to various other FF-related discussions as the topic grows, right?
edited 3rd Nov '09 4:22:18 AM by Stark Maximum
Left Eye
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Use one as a bus? When was that?
Yeah I beat it. I agree that the idea the fal'Cie were ls Death Seekers is pretty neat but you can't make a villain interesting by revealing everything in their final appearance. Granted Barthandalus' introduction was very nice but that's all he had. Rosch was interesting as a sort of Anti-Villain but he wasn't around nearly enough.
If XIII had one flaw that stands out the most to me, it's the fact the villains all have about eight scenes between them throughout the entire game. Barthandalus and Yaag and -shudder- Jihl just don't really leave any sort of impression on you because they're hardly ever fucking there.
It was very disappointing after XII where there are several scenes with the villains just talking amongst themselves. Ya know, establishing their personalities and stuff.
As for the rest of the ending, when I scrutinize it and the literal Deus ex Machina of Vanille and Feng saving Cocoon, it becomes less tolerable. But if I just watch it and the part where everyone is reunited and My Hands is playing, I think it's nice.
Atomos is the one they use as a means of transportation.
edited 20th May '12 5:52:19 PM by Nikkolas
Left Eye
Oh right.
Well, in all fairness, not all fal'Cie are that powerful.
Anima(the fal'Cie that turned the party into l'Cie) was killed by normal humans.
Umbran Climax◊
Well there ya go. The game's pretense that the fal'Cie are powerful gods who run everything is shot in the foot multiple times.
If they wanted to die, I'm sure the party could have done it. T Ragnarok wasn't even necessary.
Not every Fal'cie is the same level of power.
There are several Cocoon fal'cie that just serve as doors. Just opening and closing. For all eternity.
Yeah, I'd want to die too, probably.
Some fal'cie are weaker than others. fal'cie were created to perform a certain task, a focus, and have a limited amount of power to accomplish that task.
Humans can do whatever the fuck they want, and can be as strong as they need or want to be.
Humans have this weird power called "free will" and another called "unlimited potential."
Of course the fal'cie want that power for themselves.
It'll be useful to open The Door.
Left Eye
That they aren't all powerful is kinda the point.
It's generic "humans can do anything because of our hearts" stuff.
And the party did end up killing them without Ragnarok.... sorta(Orphan's first form has a barrier around it that Fang-Ragnarok destroys in a cutscene, but once that's out of the way they defeat his true form on their own).
This too.
edited 20th May '12 6:50:12 PM by JotunofBoredom
Umbran Climax◊
And again, none of that is brought up at all except at the very end of the game.
The impression we are given of the fal'Cie is they are the ultimate beings in existence. For instance, when light tells Sazh her goal is to kill the fal'Cie? His "oh shi-" face is the perfect visual representation of the game's message that the fal'cie are immensely powerful.
And that whole "humans have limitless potential" stuff is so much nonsense and reeks of being thrown in last minute. How did the party even become as powerful as they are? By being made l'Cie. Who made them l'Cie? The fal'Cie. Even after they fucking killed the Supreme Cocoon fal'Cie Barthandalus, even after they defeated Orphan, in spite of all their power, they were still turned to crystal.
In short, the fal'Cie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humans. The party be dead if Barthandalus had really wanted that.
...Part of it is in the mythology as well. And the Analects.
...I wouldn't say anything in XIII was "thrown in last-minute" really.
I think that the entire Fabula Nova Crystallis series is abusing the Unreliable Narrator trope any chance it gets.
Keep in mind. The people of Cocoon, like Sazh, lived alongside the Cocoon fal'cie. The people of Cocoon had been raised by the fal'cie, and fal'cie propaganda, like cattle to the slaughter.
Lightning: "Like pets."
...The three of them, Light, Sazh, and Snow killed their fal'cie, Anima. As humans. Branding them was literally the last thing it ever did.
And the idea of "limitless potential" as applied to L'cie, is that the fal'cie unlock the abilities that people were always capable, in theory of possessing, but would be too difficult to acquire naturally. The fact that they have potential, that they can grow stronger is what sets them quite apart from fal'cie. That, and they can choose what to do with their lives, instead of opening doors.
And no, Barthandelus couldn't have killed them. Fal'Cie, (except Etro, whom the Maker didn't give a fuck about) have a pretty big thing about not dying. They are not allowed to kill themselves, and when attacked, they are compelled to defend themselves to the best of their ability.
If the party won, then they won. There's no real holding back in the end.
edited 20th May '12 7:33:20 PM by unnoun
I meant that Barthandalus could have killed the party. He let them off the first two fights.
As for propaganda, that's probably true. It still doesn't change the game's overall message. There is literally nothing but "the Fal'cie are all-powerful" throughout the entire game. And ya know what? They pretty much were since they accomplished everything they wanted to. The party only "succeeded" because of some random higher power interference.
It should also add that Etro and Lindzei and that shit is NEVER mentioned in the main story. In fact, the main story completely contradicts all that crap. There is only one higher deity mentioned in the main game and that is The Maker. Only "The Maker" doesn't exist since fal'Cie and humans were made by separate entities.
edited 20th May '12 7:38:49 PM by Nikkolas
Left Eye
The game's all about defying fate and stuff, so it's kinda expected that the characters would do what they are constantly told is impossible.
The issue is in how it happens, because, thanks to Etro(i.e. the closest thing to a God that has an active part in the main plot), the whole defying fate thing becomes moot.
The ending was definitely some last-minute stuff.
edited 20th May '12 7:40:25 PM by JotunofBoredom
Umbran Climax◊
That's one reason why XIII-2 is non-canon. It ruins XIII's happy ending for no reason, and completely ruins its message of defying fate.
...But it isn't contradicted by the game's message. The game's message is that humans can defy their fate and beat the fal'cie and do whatever they want and junk.
...The party doesn't need Etro or anyone's help for their miracle. The only thing they needed Etro for was to wake them up again.
They killed Anima. In chapter 2. As mortal humans.
I don't see how the game's message is about the fal'cie being all-powerful, it's always about fate, and hope, and whether or not humans have any hope to defy their fate.
...For most of the game, things seem hopeless, so of course they'd take the opposite viewpoint.
How so? I mean, the analects help explain some of the things, and to an extent, a lot of it was foreshadowed.
Not particularly well mind you, but...
edited 21st May '12 4:15:19 AM by unnoun
XIII and XIII-2 never happened.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
^_^
The ending has Vanille and Fang become Ragnarok and use up all their l'Cie power to hold Cocoon up, I don't see how any of that was last minute. Unless this is about the Light, Hope, Snow and Sazh un-ceithing themselves (I refuse to put Etro anywhere in XIII that she's not blatantly mentioned) before the final battle.
No, XIII happened but XIII-2 is something I've never heard of.
edited 21st May '12 4:36:51 AM by fourteenwings
Infinity...
...
Wait, am I seriously the only person who found XIII-2 far superior? Could have sworn others actually liked it.
^_^
Don't get me wrong, I love playable Serah as much as the next guy but overall it wasn't worth the mythology and time travel Mind Screws.
Plus I'm still on the fence about having an important part of the story such as Lightning's be DLC when they promised us she'd be in the game proper through both the initial announcements and the overall marketing.
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Maybe they shouldn't have listened to the fans in the first place?
edited 21st May '12 5:03:56 AM by fourteenwings
Infinity...
If they combined the best bits from XIII and XIII-2, they'd have the perfect game.
...I think what Square should do is ignore the fanbase from now on.
XIII came from complaints that XII was too open.
XIII-2 came from complaints that XIII was too linear.
...Maybe leaving them to their own devices next time is the best idea.
Yeah, they didn't handle the time travel so well. Or well at all actually.
I could buy the stuff with the seer, because that was actually in the first game, with the analects and stuff.
...Mixing time travel with prophecy just seems like a bad idea in principle though.
edited 21st May '12 5:03:00 AM by unnoun
^_^
...Considering Time Travel saved them from bankruptcy, duh.
Chrono Trigger did Time Travel pretty well.
I didn't mind Final Fantasy VIII too much.
edited 21st May '12 5:33:38 AM by unnoun
^_^
It just that they've done it more than once this year.
Maybe they should do it every four or so years, because those other games did handle it pretty well. I think they need time to make their time travel plots work ( DDD was announced last year and so was XIII-2 and they're not very good at time travel).
Infinity...
Left Eye
Not particularly well mind you, but...
Ignoring the fact that relying on the analects is bad storytelling:
The unexplained Cie'th/white brand stuff, the fact that Fang and Vanille knew exactly what they were doing as Ragnarok somehow, the party somehow getting teleported out of Cocoon(I'm guessing more random Ragnarok powers, wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!), that everyone ignores the probably huge inferred holocaust(XIII-2 makes it worse by saying only 1/3 of Cocoon's insides were destroyed; seriously?), random decrystalization, Serah and Dajh doing the teleportation/decrystalization thing too.
edited 21st May '12 5:35:33 AM by JotunofBoredom
Umbran Climax◊
(1) Seems pretty simple. When a brand reaches it's final stage, A person becomes a Cie'th. When the brand goes white, the brand is frozen, and stops progressing. Vanille describes it as "the promise we all made" which means the white brand comes from the free will thing.
(2) Fang and Vanille chose to become Ragnarok, in order to use that power to save Cocoon.
(3) Teleportation, I'm guessing either Ragnarok like you said, or the fact that, according to the Datalogs, Orphan's Cradle was a sort of data-world/energy plane/existed in another dimension or something. With Orphan dead, the place disintegrated and spat the party back out into Eden. Besides, there were those portals in Orphan's cradle that lead to Eden, Gran Pulse and the Narthex, as well as the Cie'th waypoint stones. There are methods of teleportation in the game already, that Ragnarok or any sufficiently powerful being would likely be able to replicate.
(4) ...Right, the Inferred Holocaust was pretty bad, but Cocoon didn't fall that far, and it seemed to keep falling a little even after Ragnarok and the crystal pillar caught it. It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop. Ragnarok could probably have slowed the decent enough before stopping it for good.
And on the last point, Barthandelus is much better at illusion magic than anything else really.
Hope: "They don't work wonders, they play tricks!"
The decrystalization is explained in the sequel. Which people don't like and consider to be non-canon.
edited 21st May '12 6:23:13 AM by unnoun
Left Eye
1) I know what they mean but: turning back from Cie'th is never explained and the fact that Fang's brand was white BEFORE she started defying her focus is also a massive anomaly.
2) I got that, how did they know what they were doing though?
3) The former explanation is a contrived(which is why I made fun of it) just like everything Ragnarok does. Also, you just contradicted yourself with the latter(you just admitted that they were spit back out in Eden, so how did they find a portal to Pulse if it was still inside Orphan's Cradle, a place they are no longer in?).
4) It was falling at high enough speeds that it began to melt at the bottom, there is no way it could have been stopped gently before hitting the planet; the stop, even if not immediate, would have to be very quick.
Hope's one off lines, do not an explanation make. In fact, a lot of speculation from both the main and villains turns out to be complete conjecture on their parts.
Also, i know the explanation for why they decrystallize; I'm saying it's dumb.
edited 21st May '12 6:34:44 AM by JotunofBoredom
Umbran Climax◊
(1) Well, it's either that Orphandelus was lying and used an illusion to make Fang think they'd turned Cie'th, or the party was able to willpower or free will themselves out of it. Neither answer is completely satisfactory, but then, I'm not sure it's supposed to be.
(2) The same way they figured out how to do anything else I guess. If they could make Ragnarok and destroy the world, they could probably become Ragnarok and save it.
(3) My main point is that there are methods of teleportation. Ragnarok could have imitated the gates and sent the party to the ground. Or, the party could possibly have fallen to the ground, or something.
(4) Was it melting? Didn't look melty to me, hot yes, but not melting. Unless you mean the magma Ragnarok got to make the pillar with. Because that wasn't from Cocoon melting. Ragnarok just got some melted rock from Gran Pulse's mantle. It seemed like it was falling fairly slow to me, and slowed at a fair rate when Ragnarok grabbed it.
What's so dumb about it? It's at least an explanation, that it didn't have in the first game.
edited 21st May '12 6:47:38 AM by unnoun
It partially explains the motivations of the Fal'Cie, and most of the characters are pretty awesome.
But yeah, I can understand just up and quitting at Orphan's Cradle. Pretty damn terrible final level.
edited 20th May '12 4:57:38 PM by unnoun