Dragon Age

I did Celene/Briala on my first playthrough, but I think I've soured on it somewhat. For my replay, I think I'm going with Briala ruling through Gaspard.

I do remember that Mahanon's reaction to Leliana's proposition was probably the shortest he's ever been with one of his people. I wanted him to actually be even more curt about it. He was basically like,

• Leliana: There's another option. We let her die.
• Mahanon: All due respect, you're an idiot. A scary, scary idiot. Please don't eat my soul.

And then I headcanon he never let her live it down. Like, when Corpyheus was going for the Well of Sorrows, I headcanon that he looked right at Leliana and was like, "The other option is that we just let him take the Well and hope that works out, right?"

I mean, there actually is political logic in dethroning Celene, but my character still saw it as tremendously counterproductive to basically allow Corypheus to achieve his goal for the sake of it maybe not being so awful. If Corypheus wasn't trying to have her killed to destabilize Orlais, he'd probably be more open to hearing Leliana out.

edited 28th May '17 5:39:25 PM by TobiasDrake

I was wondering why choose Celene/Briala under the idea of elf relations. Briala solo is right there.

edited 28th May '17 5:42:05 PM by VeryMelon

Mahanon's logic was basically:

• Celene - YES. We're here to stop her from being assassinated. That is literally the exact reason we are here. Why are we even having this discussion?
• Briala - YES. Because elves in Orlais are being screwed and, as an elf, this is a deeply personal concern for me.
• Gaspard - NO. Because he's a violent asshole tearing up the region in civil war. He's the reason it's destabilized in the first place. He is, right now, moving soldiers in to take over the ball by force which is a major no-no so far as The Game is played.

The Winter Palace Deadly Game? First playthrough I accidently had Celene killed, didn't know I was advocating getting her killed, and thought Briala was too much of a greenie and Gaspard too much a tyrant so best outcome was she ruled through him. Subsequent playthroughs had me vying for as high approval as I could, get as much blackmail material as I could, would love to get all three to work together but Gaspard is always deposed of, so Celene and Briane or Celene herself depending on which Inquisitor you play as.

As for Leliana, do the words, "Lothering merchant" mean anything? She freaks right out over killing this scumbag and now is advocating the same thing. Make up your mind.

Maybe him being from Lothering has something to do with it? After all, that was the place where she met the Warden (I think)

She's a different person in Lothering. Part of the reason she's so intensely moralizing in the first game is as a direct reaction to having been an assassin in Orlais. That conflict and contradiction is built into her character.

She's actually pretty different just between how she behaves up in the Rookery and what she's like at the Winter Palace. Something Cole says always interested me— something along the lines of 'when Leliana puts on a new mask, she changes all the way down.' Her different personas, and the disparity between them, that's deliberately emphasized as part of the character.

I was an Elf who sided with Gaspard ruling alone because that one maid pointed out how Briala basically lived off being Celene's fuck buddy and let all the other elves get genocided.

Think that fact kind of cancels out Briala's credentials of...uh, being an elf and that's it.

Also Cassandra was my top friend and advisor and she preferred Gaspard.

edited 28th May '17 8:01:18 PM by Nikkolas

But, like... Under Gaspard, the genocide will probably still keep happening. Yeah, Briala's not exactly an unblemished hero of the elven people, but at least she'd work to prevent another set of purges. Hopefully.

In the game, it sounds like Celene gave the order to burn the alienage, with some reluctance but not very much, and Briala didn't find out until the order was already given? I never read Masked Empire. Being the Empress's pet elf still isn't really a great look, but in theory having a voice at the Empress's ear would have been better than nothing at all. Like, had she not been sleeping with Briala, one imagines Celene could have given the order without even that small pang of regret.

edited 28th May '17 8:09:16 PM by Unsung

I...judging by what I've read about The Masked Empire, this does not appear to be an altogether accurate description of Briala.

In any case, Gaspard's kind of a war-mongering douchebag, and is pretty damn racist towards elves to boot.

I believe we've discussed how the game doesn't convey enough background info on the Orlais situation to the player before.

edited 28th May '17 8:08:33 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Gaspard made peace with Ferelden in War Table. Never understood why he's perceived as a warmongerer.

And we have indeed talked about how the game doesn't give enough detail and doesn't line up with Masked Empire. Maybe that's why Gaspard has the rep he does. All I can offer is my view from when I played the game. That maid really soured me on Briala.

Well, because he started a civil war and wants to do away with the Game in favour of beefing up Orlais's armies. He comes by his warhawk reputation honestly. Still, maybe he'd be more willing to make peace with Ferelden on the basis that their honour and chivalric nobility line up more closely with his own values than Orlais's Deadly Decadent Court, but the game deliberately makes it pretty vague who's telling you the truth and when at Halamshiral.

edited 28th May '17 8:28:57 PM by Unsung

To be fair, he was the legitimate heir to the throne. Celene is an usurper. And I can't exactly say doing away with the Game is a bad thing.

I generally go for Briala and Celene though. Mostly because it's harder to do and I get a skill point amulet thingy for it. It also seems like it'd probably be the best for the elves in the long run.

If Celene will keep her word and the relationship between them remains cordial, that might be best for everyone.

My understanding is that Celene's claim to the throne came from outside the normal succession but was legitimized by the Council of Heralds? Not exactly usurping, since the system in place is intended to forego exactly the kind of civil war squabbles that Gaspard has gone ahead and started up anyway. Gaspard's somewhat sympathetic, but they all are, and they're all assholes, too. Forcing all three of them to work together is the most personally satisfying for me, though what's good for me doesn't seem like it's great for the country. Although whether or not I want what's best for Orlais... I'm on the fence about that.

edited 29th May '17 12:09:27 AM by Unsung

Gaspard was out of town doing stuff and in the fifteen minutes he was gone Celene corrupted the Council of Heralds and seized the throne despite not being the heir. She's basically an usurper. The throne was not hers.

I figure Orlais under Celene is unlikely to go to war with anyone since the military doesn't like her and she's not very expansionist, so having what's best for Orlais can also be best for its neighbors.

edited 28th May '17 9:42:17 PM by Arha

What you described though is exactly how the line of succession to the throne in Orlais is supposed to work, just being the direct descended of the previous emperor is not enough to become the next ruler. Saying that the Council was "corrupted" is pushing it, the council is part of the Great Game and backed the one who excelled at it rather than the one who openly disdained it.

I backed Celene over Gaspard. Gaspard spends most of his time in the novel and in the game trying to start wars with Fereldan (which after putting all those hours into saving it in Origins makes me very protective of it), actively went to sabotage and undo all of the work Celene had done to improve the lives of Elves in Orlais, and if left to his own devices wages war on Fereldan and keeps the oppression of the elves. Yes, I know if you do a war room mission he doesn't invade Fereldan and if you keep Briala alive and in power she makes him improve the Elves' lot, but an Emperor who only does the right thing one somebody else forces them to isn't a good Emperor.

Plus Celene had more of a focus on promoting culture and with Briala at her side makes major strides in promoting Elvish rights, so there's that too.

edited 29th May '17 12:19:02 AM by Shaoken

My logic was that, well, our entire prompt over going here is to protect Celene. The very idea that we let her die at all is risking the bad future we came to prevent. Celene's death lead to that future. That's all we knew. For all the characters know, Gaspard getting the throne at all leads to the same thing for all that he's hated in Orlais.

So, Celene survives.

I also have my Inquisitor reconcile Celene and Briala with the intention that a lot of my choices were made on the knowledge that my Inquisitor really doesn't know the full picture at all and doesn't truly understand the power they wield just yet. Had the Inquisitor known the events of Masked Empire, maybe he wouldn't have reconciled them at all. But my Inquisitor never got that level of context so he couldn't have known.

Doesn't change the fact that I, as the player, am a bit soured over it. It doesn't feel right but I can't argue out of it in-universe.

People who bring up Masked Empire in this context are talking about it being an unhealthy relationship, right? I don't actually care. At all. They can make each other miserable all they like so long as Celene doesn't purge any more alienages or whatever.

I never reconcile the two. Too much work to get everything just right and I waste too much time and Hala statues exploring. I just simply don't like Gaspard enough to put him on the throne. And his sister tries to kill me.

Having more Hala Statue doors than Hala Statues was certainly a dick move.

Honestly, what the Winter Place quest needed was an ambassador from both Ferelden and Nevarra, who are like Otto von Bismarck types playing 4-D chess, actively encouraging the Inquisitor to do their best in saving all three. Their stated aims:
1.) Celene is good because she's a peacemaker, though her adherence to the Game makes her untrustworthy to the Landsmeet.
2.) Gaspard is good because he's a great general despite his warmongering ways, and his straightforward personality makes him ideal for facilitating backchannel diplomacy with the culturally similar Fereldan government. Also, the existence of a separate claimant complicates Orlais's domestic situation and makes foreign military adventures unlikely.
3.) Briala is necessary as a deterrent, making Celene less likely to invade if a possible elf insurrection within their borders. Gaspard keeps her in check, making it unlikely that it would actually happen and spread to Ferelden because then Gaspard would exterminate Orlais's elves.

The end result is a return to the status quo, but a politically diminished Orlais.

Their unstated fourth reason would be to distract Orlais as the two countries formalize an alliance to push pro-Orlais elements out of the Free Marches, and to do so bloodlessly. With Celene, Gaspard, and Briala all squabbling with each other, the chance of an Orlesian response is limited. They would each provide a free Halla statue, but your influence meter gets docked for consorting with foreign diplomats. In the War Room, doing this route would open a chain of quests to diplomatically isolate Orlais, instead of forming a pact with it and Ferelden.

edited 30th May '17 7:44:06 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Keep in mind, the Inquisitor — the person who essentially gave him his position — has to bring him to the table for Gaspard to make peace with Ferelden. For everyone else, peace with Ferelden is assumed. Even a Gaspard who settles with Ferelden for now will send his armies to push the north Tevinter border.

I don't see how diplomatically isolating Orlais helps the Inquisiton. That said their is evidence of squabbles over the Free Marches, if I recall one of the cities is really pissed at Ferelden.

All the Inquisition really needs is Orlesian soldiers for the meat grinder against Corypheus, and for that, they need to not be in a civil war. Whether Orlais rots or prospers is actually independent of the need for more Cannon Fodder.

The entire section of your character working their way from the ruins of Haven to Skyhold could have been done just as easily as a cutscene.

"Hey! Enjoy spending two minutes doing nothing but pushing your control stick up as your character slowly gimps his way forward! Isn't it great that we're letting you feel like you're there?!"