Dragon Age

Oh...Oh damnum that's a great observation. Was it deliberate? Probably.

Both song scenes are great but I think the general consensus is The Dawn Will Come is better than Leliana's Song. One can come across as slightly creepy, but the other works on so many levels. Is it cheesy? Sure it is, the same as Rick getting that sweet Jolly Rogers Tomcat of his brother's in Robotech or Mary Jane really goes for Peter Parker in Spiderman, or maybe anything to do with David Nolan and Mary Margaret in Once Upon a Time. But y'know what, I think we can all forgive it if it is done well.

The best part of The Dawn Will Come is how Solas walks in on it. I always interpreted his face and reaction to be "what the fuck is this bullshit?" Don't get me wrong, it's a nice song and scene but Solas makes it hilarious to me.

Morrigan has the same reaction to Leliana singing, now I think on it.

edited 22nd Aug '16 5:35:45 AM by Nikkolas

I actually had the impression that he liked it. When you ask him about things he saw in the Fade he speaks of that army who's song was very moving. It is my headcanon that he was actually talking about the Inquisition and that it is what motivated him to reveal Skyhold to them.

edited 22nd Aug '16 5:46:13 AM by Kiefen

I mean, that's also very possible. I just think of Solas as this very wise, very serious character. Spontaneous singing doesn't seem like it be his bag.

This is not Lord of the Rings.

Closer to Game of Thrones.

Wait...

Kind of wish Inquisition were MORE Game of Thrones-esque than it ended up being. It wasn't very ballsy and rather played it safe.

Well, after Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3, BW pretty much were neutered .There was no way they'd do anything all that daring.

I kind of wish that too. The direction they've gone since feels a bit focus-tested. On the other hand, the writing has gotten stronger overall, with better characterization. DAO does have a lot of things working against it if it was trying to be A Song of Ice and Fire-lite, what with party members who are just too nice taken as a whole, and a darkspawn menace that isn't quite implacable enough. The Landsmeet and Orzammar are pretty good— Bioware is, oddly specifically, *good* at intrigue— but sometimes the game just seems like it's trying so hard to be grimdark and gory. And it's not pulling it off.

edited 22nd Aug '16 1:17:54 PM by Unsung

Eh. I think a lot of Origins' teeth have just been worn down over time and then shaved down further by fans ignoring some of them. I mean... The game basically gives you the choice to destroy the Ark of the Covenant, the villains while not characters in of themselves are murder-rape beasts (something that not even the White Walkers are), and a few of your party members are more than questionable in morality: Sten is apart of what appears to be a fairly barbarous religion, Zevran is an Assassin whom you have every reason to kill when you meet him, Leliana is a former assassin who is kind of struggling with how much she enjoys the life of an assassin...

Origins had teeth, just we've become accustomed to its bite.

Well here's a question for you. Do we watch Game of Thrones for the incest? No we watch it because it's pretty damn good.

Are the second and third Dragon Age games worse off because you cannot just kill everyone? Would it be better if there was a full on Rape, Pillage, and Burn minigame? Boy I hope not.

Was the strawmanning really necessary? I'm not saying DAI is worse because it's less dark. In fact I specifically avoided saying that. I'd just like to have seen the original vision of the series, which *was* pretty dark, grow to maturity. But Inquisiton isn't a bad game because it wasn't that, by means.

...I personally thought that maturation was going pretty well in DAII, but I know not everyone agrees with me on that, and that game did have other problems.

edited 22nd Aug '16 3:36:59 PM by Unsung

It was a pretty dark setting, no doubt about that, and I think one of the criticisms of the second game was that the darkness went into the writing so that no matter what Hawke did it made no difference, there was no bright spot, no happy ending, it was Mass Effect 3 before Mass Effect 3 came out. For better or worse the writing was changed so that by Inquisition the game still had teeth but there was a sense of hope, it tried to avert the Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy but I do think, yep, they could have given the option for you to try and outpace Joffery as a monster and the game would still be awesome.

Would Inquisition have actually benefited if you could? Um...I don't think many would have an interest in going that dark, no strawmanning or joking around about how dark Game of Thrones can get here, what we got resonates with a lot of fans as far as horror or sadness goes. I could use a metaphor here but it would likely be gross.

@Ink Dagger: I think the reason why DAO feels less dark is because characters don't quite react the way they should to the darkness around them. Nobody really talks about the MurderRapeBeasts once we find out that's what broodmothers do, and seriously, somebody needs to freak the fuck out at that moment. These characters are in a combination horror/war movie, but the way they talk sounds like standard fantasy adventure fare, your garden-variety quest to vanquish evil. There are times when it seems like Bioware really did want to emphasize the horror of it all and that comes through in a few moments, but they never fully commit to it.

Sort of in line with what tsstevens mentions, Mass Effect handles this better, a more fully developed version of these themes and moments. Garrus is a great example of Survivor Guilt, and having the whole cast stick around from one game to another does a lot to let the weight of events settle in. DAII actually does well with this too, with its years-long gaps between acts meaningfully reflected in characterization.

DAI definitely was not made for evil characters and its message of hope and inspiration would not have gone down nearly as well if you could thoroughly sabotage it by your own actions. The most you can do is be ruthless and anti-Chantry, but that's still treated as a grey area.

Probably good you can't be a blood mage anymore, honestly. That never made sense. Choosing to become a blood mage really needed to be something other characters reacted to, given how much they work it up with Jowan and Merrill.

I don't need an absolutely happy ending, but ME 3 at least needed to end with a big splashy final battle. I wouldn't have minded my inevitable death if I at least got to go out with a (rapid-fire series of) bang(s).

edited 22nd Aug '16 4:49:52 PM by Unsung

I maintain that Origins has always been a somewhat rapey High Fantasy over the Dark Fantasy it was marketed as.

Basically.

Whether a game was rapey or not, high fantasy, low fantasy, I think there's one important question that needs answering: is it any good?

Heck yeah! Sure you don't get to play as Ramsey Bolton. So?

Well, technically, it's very likely you will still get the Ramsay Bolton experience while playing Origins.

Mabari hounds using Overwhelm on you hurts like a bitch, doesn't it?

edited 22nd Aug '16 4:47:06 PM by dragonfire5000

I'd take that over the giant spiders doing that. Game was crazy with it's graphic content and I have no problem playing through as a, "Those who hurt you will die screaming" type of character, especially with mods.

I think that's also because Origins aims for a more classical Adventure-Fantasy tone and vibe. Yes, there are horrible things going on and by god there are some fucked up things, but the game doesn't give everything the full weight. That doesn't mean its 'less dark'. I will still every time say Origins is a lot darker than DA 2, but that doesn't change how much fun and great I find the story.

I think its simply that ME, DA 2, and Origins went for different things. Mass Effect aimed for a Space Opera so the character's, their pasts, and their experiences have a lot more weight. DA 2 aimed for a 'Rag Tag Bunch of Misfits go on adventures' and thus becomes more character driven. Dragon Age: Origins, while having an EXCELLENT cast, is still more plot driven than character driven. Sure, the cast don't exactly react to how dark everything is, but that'd compromise the Fantasy-Adventure feeling unless they wanted to deconstruct things.

The thing about Inquisition is that I feel like it should have had a weightier feeling too it and it seems like it gives that impression, but Post-Haven, things are smooth sailing and I don't feel like the rest of the game hits the sense of instability and grounded nature of the first couple of hours. Everything feels pretty standard Fantasy fare in the meaty center: You go to a fancy ball and are instrumental in making a King/Queen. You siege an un-siegable Fortress amidst a heavy battle. You go adventuring in a giant temple untouched for thousands of years.

Compared to the original Origins where you went on fantastic adventures that usually had some dark edge to them, Inquisition doesn't have nearly the bite. The Mage's circle has meat moss and horrible destruction. The Werewolves are a lot more tragic than one might originally think and the conclusion comes at a cost. The Deep Roads are a gore fest with horrific implications and revelations. I kind of wish Inquisition took more notes from Game of Thrones and not just for 'Bloodier and Gorier' but just for further complications and dark twists and giving things a lot more weight.

Origin does have a lot of "on the paper these concepts are really dark" but like it was said, nobody reacts to them as if things were dark and I think the fact you can rather easily make everything better kinda undermines that

While The Dawn Will Come is certainly better than Leliana's Song as a whole, I do feel that Leliana's Song is unduly looked down upon. It never felt unnatural to me; to the contrary, it would have felt awkward if the party's Bard never sang once.

Yeah, maybe I meant 'better animated' rather than better sung when comparing Leliana's Song to The Dawn Will Come. It'd been a while, and I remembered that differently.

I see two problems with it, first is she can look a little creepy doing it, and second as some fans have pointed out, "This is the fifth time today Leliana tries to seduce you, the fifth time today." Personally I don't particularly mind even if I'm not looking to romance her but she's persistent.

@Spooky Mask: Totally agree.

They really had carte-blanche to go a lot darker than they did in DAI, given what was happening. The Fade and Adamant could have been much creepier— blood magic! demons! —and the Mage-Templar War is just over too soon. That conflict really could have been drawn out longer. Sure, you pick a side and the other falls to Corypheus— but have that take a while, have the war itself continue. As you say, it sucks a lot of wind out of the later game's sales when Corypheus just keeps on losing and getting weaker and weaker with no added stakes. If we had more of a sense that he was still using the Red Templars/Venatori and Grey Wardens even after you'd freed most of them— and he is, but it doesn't really get a lot of attention other than his appearance at the Temple of Mythal— that would've helped keep tension high.

The thing about Bioware wanting to keep the Adventure Fantasy tone going throughout DAO is that it smacks of trying to have their cake and eat it too. It kind of *does* mean less dark, because it affects the tone. I can't really be scared or creeped out if my party members aren't. I mean, stop talking about shoes, Leliana, that guy just got pasted across the floor.

Not that the same thing doesn't happen in DA 2, because, in a word, Merrill. DA 2 isn't actually as dark as Origins, but it tends to feel darker to me because everything is so corrupt and everyone is so tense. The peril seems more real. Sometimes it turns out that the peril really was real, because Plotline Death! and then along comes the Downer Ending.

I guess my point is that DAO is a bigger, more ambitious, more complete game, but it feels like it's at odds with itself at times. DA 2 is clearly unfinished, but feels more of one piece, more cohesive. DAI brings the two sides together at last, but it's still not as open-ended as DAO and the tone (and colour palette) is much brighter.

I didn't really mind Origins having the Fantasy-Adventure tone. It made a lot of moments really dark, but didn't mean that I kept a sense of dread and despair for the entire game. I'd be freaked out and horrifically disgusted for the entirety of the deep roads, but that feeling didn't encompass my going to Redcliff after that quest was done and so on.

Compare to Mass Effect 3 where dread, depression, despair, and desperation are not only the tone, but arguably the theme. And that game was down right depressing. Focusing on the dark stuff too much can really push the Audience Apathy unless you have good reason (i.e. Bioshock and other horror survival games sell themselves on how dark they are).

I'd argue the difference between Origins and DA 2 is, once again, how they handle darkness. Origins gets really freaking dark at times, but you never really lose your sense of hope and 'If I try, I can hopefully fix things'. DA 2 doesn't get as dark, but really stomps on that sense of hope that the player needs which can force a lot of people into complete apathy as to what happens. Hence why DA 2 feels darker than Origins: there isn't anything to counter balance that darkness.