Character Perception Evolution cleanup and maintenance

If there was a name I would go for that hypothetical trope, it'll "Fallen Fan-Favorite" or "Fallen Darkhorse".

Edited by ToonAbby on Dec 16th 2023 at 6:40:39 AM

Would Musgrave from Mission: Impossible III count, being initially seen as a Well-Intentioned Extremist but now seen as a Racist Colonist given changing views on the War on Terror?

I don’t think so I mean the war on Terror was well underway when the film released

About the Care Bears, there's long been an attempt to launch something like "Vindicated by the Target Audience", about how changes to long-running children's franchises are badly received by the organised, vocal fandom (inevitably adults) but well remembered when the children that came in then have grown up. However it languishes in TLP because of some chronic problems with deciding upon examples.

I question the entry on Ash Ketchum not because I don’t think he went through CPE but rather when:

Protagonist Ash Ketchum was, especially following the anime's initial wave of popularity in the 90s, once a gigantic Memetic Loser due to his constant losses in leagues, perceived inferiority to videogame protagonists (especially Red, who was a Memetic Badass at the time), being perpetually 10 years old, personifying the Fleeting Demographic Rule, and his Idiot Hero nature undergoing increasing Flanderization with time, especially in Best Wishes. Opinions started to shift around the X and Y era, where he was written as a more competent trainer (and for those who didn't like how overly mature he seemed given that he was still meant to be 10 years old, the following Sun & Moon series rectified this while retaining his competence as a trainer, with the following Journeys series finding a middle ground between the two portrayals level of maturity while also keeping his competence), with him reaching new and increasingly significant heights including a runner-up position in Kalos, winning in Alola outright, and becoming the World Coronation Series Monarch in Journeys. Also contributing is that around this time, Red's reputation started to waver due to overexposure by both official and fan media and his divisive Pokémon Origins take that debuted just before X and Y aired, leading fans to re-evaluate Ash as a likable protagonist who displays genuine care for his Pokémon rather than it being an Informed Attribute and had to work hard to earn his victories and achievements rather than be an Invincible Hero. Many also reappraised him as a decent attempt at translating one of the blank-slate game protagonists into an actual character following Origins. When it was announced that he would be retired in 2023, fan reaction was overwhelmingly one of sadness and fond remembrance. Had this happened 10 years earlier, the response would've been And There Was Much Rejoicing. ——————————————————

From what I can tell Ash didn’t get his Memetic Loser status utill Unova, where people began to retroactively paint him as always being a bad trainer, rather than Unova being an outlier. And while his pre-Gen V portrayals have gotten reevaluation (especially Hoenn and Sinnoh as up until Gen VI the common concensus seemed to be Ash became boring starting in Hoenn, when these days those two gens are often hailed as his best series with Kalos being seen as more of a Flat Character), every portrayal after Sinnoh has been quite divisive.

In fact while this entry says Ash winning the Alola Leauge helped repair his image it was actually a major Broken Base. Several viewers felt Ash’s characterization in Sun & Moon was just as bad if not worse than ''Best Wishes'’ and thus felt this incarnation of the character didn’t deserve to win a League. While Ash’s departure definitely had more fond reminiscing than had it occured a decade prior I’d say his portrayal from Gens I-IV are the only ones that have been vindicated fully as Gens V-VIII are all divisive to varying degrees. But im not sure how to rewrite this entry as it’s already boarding on a Wall of Text

Edited by Mariofan99 on Dec 26th 2023 at 7:10:02 AM

Ash Ketchum is a complicated case because a lot of his Memetic Loser status stems from fandom discovering Red in the early days of the Internet (or rather, discovering that the games called the Gen I player trainer "Red" instead of Ash). There were already memes claiming that Red is better than Ash back in DP saga, largely thanks to HGSS reintroducing Red as the strongest Pokémon trainer that can be fought in the games. BW saga only sent it to overdrive.

I made a timeline of Ash and Red's history to pinpoint when the distinction happened, and how it affected perception. It's not complete and I'm still looking for new documents, but I noticed that during the Gen II era, Ash and Red were considered the same character... but by 2005-2006, there was conscious effort to separate the two, and it's quite clear the fandom was not completely happy with Ash as a character since there was a false attempt to say that Ritchie is the true anime incarnation of Red despite the fact he looks nothing like Red aside from similar clothing style (which is really more of Ritchie is just a clone of Ash).

So right there, I can that it's not so much of the specific characterization of Ash in certain series that has the audience have changed their views. It's very concept of Ash's character as a whole.

Ash is in many ways a deconstruction of the typical Stock Shōnen Hero protagonist. There's nothing really special about him. An immature, regular kid with a big ego who has to literally go through the toughest hardships and challenges that he might not actually succeed despite putting his heart into it. After all, losing in the Indigo League was considered to be a major shocker for audiences who expect the hero to prevail by belief and Christmas Miracle. The difference is that Ash's journey still continued despite this and he still took on many more challenges and Leagues in the future... it's just that the audience wasn't prepared of how many Leagues would Ash lose rather than winning. Many were hoping that by DP, Ash would win the League, though many more were cynical already considering that the effort to get to the League was about three years at minimum.

This was where Red came into the fandom. Unlike Ash, Red could win the Pokémon League on his first try due to being the player protagonist. The Pokémon Adventures manga had its Red winning the Pokémon League tournament against Blue (Green) at the end of the Red, Green & Blue Saga. And the Gen II games confirm that Red canonically won the Pokémon League and is the highest leveled trainer in the game. This naturally made fans latch on to Red as their ideal role model over Ash. They wanted a protagonist trainer that wins, not lose. In fact, they wanted that trainer to always win, to always be badass, to already be a Pokémon Master (because nobody actually realized that the title was something Ash made up on spot rather than a legit title in the Pokémon world).

Hence "Red is better than Ash" memes.

It's only in 2013 that there was a turning point in the perceptions. First with Pokémon Origins making Red the main character and distinct from Ash... and Pokémon the Series: XY giving attributes of FRLG Red to Ash to make him more cool and badass. It soon became clear that Red and Ash have more in common than previously realized. And that Red wasn't the Memetic Badass the fandom created in their head, and some of his biggest victories were more questionable due to plot conveniences (namely Giovanni Gym Battle) and shortened time. Yes, it was nice to see a protagonist win the championship, but catharsis was mostly missing. Compare that to Ash, where his skills in XY were constantly compared to his past performances in BW and DP as a sign of his growth as a skilled trainer, which contributed to the mass hype for the Kalos League simply because people genuinely believed that Ash could win this time.

And this is what Sun and Moon and Journeys did for the big final leagues. They hyped the audience with nostalgia of the past and how far Ash has come as he approaches the finals. The culmination of everything he has worked up for, no matter the setbacks, finally paying off. This is where the Leagues where Ash lost goes from a source of shame for the fandom to a source of pride because they can now be seen as stepping stones for Ash improving himself as a trainer through hard work and persistence rather than being stuck in a never-ending cycle of defeats and misery akin to Peter Parker's life in Universe 616. There is an ending for Ash's story after all.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 26th 2023 at 1:32:54 AM

So are you saying the entry shouldn’t be rewritten? I personally take issue as it implies Ash no longer has many detractors when he still has a lot it’s just limited to his post Sinnoh portrayals

Not necessarily. It's more of providing more context on Ash's fan reception before BW. The biggest shift in fandom perception was on Ash's inability to win a Pokémon League.

Even before BW, Ash was seen as a Memetic Loser because he was still around and hadn't win a Pokémon League yet. You can see it by how people insisted that Ritchie was the true anime incarnation of Red back in the mid-2000s, or really how people really insisted that Red and Ash are not the same character even on this website. And why is that? Because fans didn't want to associate Red with Ash because they think Ash is a loser and would taint Red's reputation.

Yes, there were fans who pointed out how Ash actually realistically worked his way from the bottom to the top during the OS-DP era and thus was more relatable than the idolized player avatar Red, but they were often shut down by other fans who only cared about the final results, which is whether or not Ash would win a Pokémon League and become Champion. Those fans didn't pay attention to Ash vs Paul, the culmination of the two's rivalry. They only paid attention to the Tobias battle and how Ash will never win a League.

It's only when Ash actually started edging into the League finals and eventual victory did those arguments of OS-DP Ash finally take root. After all, many were shocked that Ash actually won a Pokémon League and then later became the World Champion. They thought he was still the same loser back in the OS-DP era because they didn't think the anime would actually progress Ash's character. Only dedicated fans who followed the OS-DP arcs would know that Ash has considerably grown as a character and that his World Champion victory in Pokémon Journeys was, in hindsight, an inevitability not an impossibility.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 26th 2023 at 7:07:39 AM

So maybe I should just add a line like “while the writing of Ash in certain series has proven divisive the character as a whole is recived far better than he once was now that his story is complete”.

Recently, danieloryan59 deleted Rocky's CSP example without an edit reason. As someone who hasn't watched BFDI in a while (and plans on not re-watching it, having grown out of the Object Show Community in favor of other Animate Inanimate Object-lead shows that that isn't web-exclusive or a Total Drama-esque reality show), I have no idea if the example violates the "character being reevaluated for the better/worse" policy of the trope or not. Though the example it doesn't mention that Rocky's pre-BFB appearances are seen in a more critical light.

Here’s another entry from the Pokémon page I’d like to discuss. Not because I nessicarly disagree, but rather I’m worried this could lead to an overload of entries:

For the first fifteen-odd years of its existence, Charizard was well-liked for being a fire-breathing dragon, in spite of being underwhelming in battle due to its typing and overly average stats limiting its usefulness. Then Pokémon X and Y gave Charizard two Mega Evolutions, both of which are much stronger than the base version in addition to being downright cool-looking. Charizard's popularity consequently skyrocketed, eventually leading to said popularity getting acknowledged within the video games via cameos. However, people began noticing that the games of the time were making an excessive amount of references to the original games and several Charizard cameos left it looking out of place. This culminated in Pokémon Sword and Shield, where the champion's signature Charizard is routinely shilled as being undefeatable and has a Gigantamax form that changes little from its regular appearance. Meanwhile, the other Kanto starters were completely absent at launch and they and the game's own starter Pokemon Advertisement:

didn't receive Gigantamax forms of their own for half a year. Consequently, Charizard has gained a reputation as a Base-Breaking Character due to sheer overexposure. While the Flame Pokémon still has fans, many within the fanbase see it as emblematic of Game Freak supposedly pandering to nostalgia at the cost of innovation.

—————————-

While Charizard has definitely dwindled in popularity the same could be said about alot of Pokemon espically from the first 4 gens. Very few Pokemon species on the Base-Breaking Character list qualified as such from their very inception. In fact I’ve noticed a common trend

1. Fans latch onto a particular Pokémon from a group becoming an Ensemble Dark Horse

2. The Pokemon Company takes notice of the popularity and turns that species into a Breakout Character. This is typically done by giving the species better tools in the mainline games and more prominent roles in spin offs and/or the anime

3. A large amount fans get sick of this species overexposure resulting in a large Hype Backlash and the Pokemon species turns into a Base-Breaking Character.

I’ve seen this happen with Pikachu, Charizard, Blaziken, Gardivor, Lucario, and Greninja. So if Charizard is allowed should the same qualify for these species? I’m not nessicarly opposed but I’m worried it could lead to too much overlap with the BBC page

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 1st 2024 at 12:22:28 PM

I think Charizard is notable for the sheer scale of the backlash. People begrudgingly accept Pikachu being everywhere, and they may roll their eyes at the others. Charizard made people legitimately upset, as the mon was eventually seen as the epitome of pandering to a specific type of fan (specifically the "genwunners") and was shoehorned into everything for a while. In my experience the other mons didn't have a backlash nearly as widespread and severe.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 1st 2024 at 11:51:48 AM

Another issue was that Blastoise and venusaur were not included in this stuff. Which was viewed as unfair by a Lot of fans.

Yeah, I think the backlash to Charizard is much stronger, and it's the only one who has the necessary examples.

I’d argue for Lucario and Greninja at least being on the same magnitude as the Charizard backlash, in large part due to the anime. When the former species debuted it was popular request for Ash to catch one given his connection to Aura. But by the time Ash actually obtained one in Pokemon Journeys (Gen 8) it was met with large amounts of apathy. This was due to how overused the species had become in the games (making it the first Pokemon to canonically mega evolve with the gift Mega Lucario being cited as a major reason X&Y was too easy) and the anime (by the time ash caught one 9 other prominent characters had owned a Lucario).

As for Greninja it started out as the most popular of the Kalos starters and even won offical polls for it being the most popular Pokemon. However the anime introducing the Ash-Greninja form and that making it into the games lead to resentment among fans of the other Kalos Starters. Even more people turned on the frog when the new form hyped up throughout the season wasn’t enough to get Ash the Kalos League win.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 1st 2024 at 12:25:56 PM

Eh... as someone who very much found Greninja to be gimmicky and overrated, I was also very aware that I was extremely outnumbered. People genuinely loved Greninja. People liked Ash Greninja, though I can't understand why personally, and people loved the Kalos anime before Ash lost to Alain. But I never saw people blame it on Greninja — people were just pissed that Charizard won. So it's more Charizard hate.

As for Lucario, apathy doesn't equal dislike, people just got over it and by that point it was too late to pander.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 1st 2024 at 12:36:37 PM

I guess I’m just confused because the definition for Base-Breaking Character is a character (or in this case species) who has a loud fandom and hatedom with a roughly 50/50 split between them. And I thought Character Perception Evolution was defined by characters who had a significant change to their out look in the time since their debut. So wouldn’t any Pokémon on the BBC page that wasn’t considered as such from their debut qualify?

With the exception of Greninja (who thinking about it, probably doesn't qualify since it was still Gen 6 when it became divisive) all the Pokémon I listed didn’t seem to become Base Breaking until a few Gens after their debut. For example, Gardivor’s entry on the BBC page states they didn’t become Base Breaking until around Gen 6, and they debuted in Gen 3.

I know CPE has the 5 year rule before adding, but I wonder if we should have a rule for how many generations a Pokemon goes without changing perception to qualify, as a method to avoid bloating the page.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 1st 2024 at 2:30:59 PM

My concern isn't so much about how much time passed, but moreso about the severity of it. I still know plenty of fans who praise mon like Gardevoir (albeit for some specific reasons) for instance; while people may have Hype Backlash for some of them, I don't know of any mons whose reception took the same 180 that Charizard's did. I also don't know if the hatedoms are even big enough to qualify them as a Base-Breaking Character.

...Though to be honest I've always been iffy on applying these tropes to mon species in general. I believe there was a discussion ages ago that ended with some consensus that species can't apply for Ensemble Dark Horse since they're not actual characters if you aren't looking at specific instances, though that has since been challenged by people still adding such tropes anyway. It just feels weird to me to say that the entire species counts as a character, for the same reason it would be odd to put such labels on an entire trainer class. They're not characters so much as collectable weapons (don't take this on my actual opinion of mon, I get extremely attached to my pokemon, but I'm just talking from the pure "gameplay mechanic" perspective)

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 1st 2024 at 2:37:23 PM

Anymore opinions on Rumplestilskin?

Never watched the show but I feel a it still counts even if the perception is an eventual 360

I’m still working on my own and with the BBC thread to determine which (if any) other Pokemon qualify for CPE. In the meantime, I feel this entry should be deleted:

• ''Pokémon the Series: XY: When he made his debut in the Mega Evolution specials, Alain started out as being a relatively popular character, in particular by the fandom's Periphery Demographic for being a clearly older, more mature protagonist whose story explored Mega Evolution in more depth than the main series did, complimenting Ash's adventures nicely. However, him beating Ash at the Lumiose Conference after a lot of hype and expectation of Ash finally winning a league and his role in Team Flare's attack as an Unwitting Pawn split the base hard, with the main points of contention being whether if he deserves to win the Conference to begin with and if he should keep his standing as the winner for his involvement with Team Flare.

——————-

While Alain is no doubt divisive I don’t know if he counts for this as while him beating Ash at the Leauge overshadows a lot about his character, it didn’t reveal any new information that would impact his earlier appearances in a different light.

Just wondering, is the five year waiting period for when a work is first released in a specific country or when it is released worldwide?

As for Rumplestilskin, I haven't watched that show, but if it is a situation where "old" Rumplestilskin was still fondly remembered, I might have to vouch for a cut.

Edited by xie323 on Jan 9th 2024 at 5:19:32 AM

Tbh I think it should be removed too since people still liked the original way he was protrayed.

Are you talking about Alain or Rumplestilskin

Rumple.