Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
I think the sheer treachery towards his flock and human experimentation gives Sanctus an edge, but this is a discussion for the cleanup thread.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Please add to the Drafts.
Over 300 words. Feel like that could be trimmed down a bit, even if he's Big Bad and warrants a long writeup.
Edited by Malginel on May 10th 2024 at 1:07:53 AM
How do we feel about this picture of Mundus torturing Vergil for the page btw?
Edited by PassingThrough on May 10th 2024 at 4:15:53 AM
Pretty good. What caption do we want?
"A shame that humans will always be human, nothing more. Has the Sparda blood been spoiled over the centuries?"
EDIT: I got the quote slightly wrong. And people like it. Oops. But here's the correct version:
"Fool! So sad that humans will always be humans, no more. Has the Sparda blood been spoiled over the ages?"
While used towards Dante, it's not too out of place here. Or something from Trish describing his creulty.
Edited by PolarPhantom on May 10th 2024 at 4:28:17 AM
I might have one last Thorgal candidate.
What's the Work?
''The Solar Sun' 'is the 19th volume and technically the start of the “Shaigan-the-Merciless” arc. In the last boo, Thorgal decided to leave his family in order to protect them from his Doom Magnet curse. Traveling on his own for months, he finally stumbles upon a land and its local tyrant.
Who's Orgoff the Invincible?
Initially a lone adventurer, Orgoff stumbled upon Kriss of Valnor and stole a Ray Gun she got from Ogotai - Big Bad of the Land of Qa.
Orgoff quickly evolves into something worse than a random thief.
What has he done?
Arriving to the (unnamed) land, he hides the raygun inside a gauntlet and concocts a story claiming he rose up to the sun and gained its power. Gathering followers, he then murders the local lord and, after seizing power, relentlessly hunts for the rebels. Those people soon enough organize themselves under the leadership of Yarilo and Kriss of Valnor and build a secret settlement in the swamps.
Orgoff afterward enslaves a great number of men to build a fortress in preparation for further conquests. The conditions are absolutely deplorable. Slaves have to carry heavy stones all day long under the heat of the sun and the whips of the masters. To prevent escape, each pair of men are chained by their ankle. During the night? They are kept in narrow and crowded pits before the guards dump leftover food (mostly bones and rotten bread) yet the starving prisoners are desperate enough to fight each others for it. As Migail (a captured rebel) explains, the death toll is very high. Not content with that, Orgoff orders all free citizens to deliver any traveler to him.
Where does Orgoff truly sink into a level of gratuitous cruelty? Every day, he visits the working site and jumps at the first excuse to kill a slave or two.
Woniaz of Ourbek, a neighbor lord, hears about Orgoff and, fearing for invasion, pledges allegiance to him and offers his very young niece Floriana in marriage which Orgoff accepts.
At the start of the story, Thorgal is treacherously robbed and sold by a famer to Orgoff's slave trade. The farmer later tells his teenage son Shenko that if he did not obey the orders, Orgoff's men would have seized the boy instead. While Shenko rightfully calls his dad out for his cowardice and greed, given what's established of Orgoff, this isn't an unfair conjecture.
After a day of hard labor, Thorgal witnesses Orgoff killing a slave who tried to kill a master. The partner of the dead slave begs mercy pointing out that he's not responsible for the his companion's behavior. Unfazed, the tyrant murders him anyway as an example. He then challenges anyone who would stand against him. Thorgal immediately answers the call.
Orgoff frees Thorgal and challenges him in an unfair duel. However, Thorgal smartly manages to dodge the rays and takes Orgoff hostage to bargain two horses for him and Migail.. After the demands are met, Thorgal immediately releases the tyrant who predictably sends his men after the fugitives eventually causing Migail's death.
Meanwhile, Orgoff's men capture the fugitive Floriana and keep her imprisoned in a camp. Thorgal meets up with Kriss of Valnor who slips drugs in the hero's drink so Yarilo can deliver Thorgal back to Orgoff as a plan. Pretending to accept Orgoff's rule, Yarilo claims to have betrayed the rebels and proposes to lead the lord to the village. Ignoring Woniaz' warnings about the obvious trap, Orgoff follows Yarilo and orders to hang Thorgal in a cage in the sun without food or water, promising to take care of him later. Luckily, Shenko releases both Thorgal and Floriana later that night.
Meanwhile, Orgoff and his men as they walk on a narrow bridge anf all fall into the ambush as Yarilo flee. When Woniaz gives the “I Warned You” speech, Orgoff kills him mid-sentence and then shoots two of his own men to retreat on the bridge. Unfortunately for him, he gets stuck in the swamp. The good hearted Thorgal helps him to get out after he drops his gun. The prick quickly repays his mercy by knocking the hero out with a stick and prepares to shoot him dead… but is interrupted by Kriss who finishes him off with an arrow in the neck.
Unfortunately for the greedy Kriss, the Raygun conveniently ran out of juice and no one on Earth has the technology required to reload it. Fortunately for everyone else, the tyranny is over, Yarilo is crowned as the new Lord, Thorgal gets his stuff back and Shenko and Floriana are free to elope together.
Kriss, however, rejects Yarilo's proposal, having higher ambitions than ruling over mere farmers. Instead she decides to follow a reluctant Thorgal. Things quickly go south afterward but that's another story...
Mitigating Factors
The answer is an easy "no". Like Volsung and Sargon, Orgoff is one of the few antagonists who have absolutely no discernible redeeming qualities, freudian excuse nor even anything remotely ambiguous. Nicest thing I can say is that he doesn't seem to be really interested in Floriana herself (he calls her a "little moron" at one point) so I don't know if he truly is an ephebophile. Still he has no qualm about marrying her against her will.
Heinous Standard
Alright, I'm placing my bet on the whole "human trafficking, awful working conditions and routine executions” part. Don't get me wrong the rest- arranged marriage, killing minions and intending to destroy a village- is a nice “bonus” but doesn't breach Thorgal's standard.
Slavefry isn't unic in the series but I think Orgoff's treatment of slaves is one of the worst ones and I'd say the second worst after the Benevolent Ones. I don't want to give anyone else awards for less-than-basic decency, but most slave traders in the series do not gratuitously kill a slave every day for kick.
Unlike Shardar, Volsung and Sargon, Orgoff doesn't explicitly aim for worldwide domination although it's stated that he plans to conquer other lands and expand his territory. so...
What could also work in Orgoff's favor is the timescale. Orgoff only show up in a single issue and his reign lasts only one year. Ressource is also a factor. Nidhogg is literally a god, the Benevolent Ones are immortal sorcerers.
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Orgoff
Love picture and proposed caption
yes for orgoff
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cautious yes for Orgoff.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
like image and caption for DMC
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is that image from the light novel or from Visions?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Gentle Laborer
The latter.
@Polar We never actually see Chen eating people, it's implied that the epithet is just a way to inspire fear.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So I think the page format will be
Original Continuity
- Mundus
First chronological work
- Entry
Continuity Reboot
DMC (not doing the formatting on mobile 
)
- Bob
Caesar
Forgot before but easy easy yes to Mundus and great work on that one, boys! Love the above pic of him, too!
Yes to Melanie as well.
- "Falca - Priestess of Prey": Falca is a tyrannical harpy who once ruled over the Forgotten Forest with an iron fist. When her army of millions of bird people abandoned her for her cruelty, Falca began scheming to once more enslave them and destroy any who resisted by using the Golden Lance. Capturing Galtar and Goleeta, Falca tries to force them into handing over the Lance by threatening to drop Goleeta off a cliff to her death, in the process showcasing that Falca has done this exact execution to many other people whose skeletal remains now litter the bottom of her lair.
Edited by Ravok on May 10th 2024 at 1:58:30 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, for Mursa, does she even do anything in her second appearance worth noting?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
Sorry for the delay, just got back from a trip to Spain. Here's Norman (and just to be clear, the e in the last name is intentional - the fic spells it wrong but spells it consistently)
- Destinies of Remnant: Norman Osborne, the Green Goblin, was Peter Parker/Spider-Man's greatest enemy who, upon discovering his secret identity, decided to systematically destroy Peter's life. Beginning by murdering his Aunt May, Norman then kidnapped his girlfriend Mary Jane Watson, then blew up Peter's best friend, his own son Harry, in front of him. Two days later, Norman offered him a Sadistic Choice that ended with him blowing up a warehouse with Mary Jane inside, specifically doing so in a manner that forces Peter to watch her die; if Peter had chosen different, Norman would have murdered a young child instead. Driving Peter to such a psychological breaking point that Peter killed Norman himself and then retired as Spider-Man, Norman's emotional torment of Peter is so horrific that he still has nightmares about him and his actions a full year later.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
for Orgoff. Gonna go ahead and snag discussion for Bad Boys: Ride or Die next month.
Caesar
Got one from a kind of surprising source now lol
What's the work?
Little House on the Prairie was a 70s Western show based on the books of the same name, a family drama centered on the Ingalls family and the small town they reside in, Walnut Grove. While ostensibly "for families", the show had some pretty dark episodes like one about morphine addiction; a mother and baby dying in an accidental fire; etc.
But there's one standout episode that scarred many a kid! "Sylvia".
Who is Irv Hartwig? What has he done?
- Introduced in the episode as a lengthy resident to the town who is a friendly and trustworthy blacksmith, Irv Hartwig is actually a pedophile who wears a creepy clown mask and assaults children. Hartwig targets young teen Sylvia in the episode, stalking the girl until she is alone in the woods where Hartwig viciously attacks and rapes her.
- Playing as a friend to the family even as Sylvia suffers deep trauma from the attack, Hartwig later learns from teen kid of the Ingalls family Albert that Sylvia is pregnant from the attack, and that she and Albert are planning on running away from town together to save Sylvia from her cruel, victim-blaming father. The twisted Hartwig pretends to help the kids, only to corner and attack Sylvia again to rape and kill her; when Albert interferes, Hartwig grabs a block of wood and nearly kills the boy.
- Luckily, the kids' fathers show up and gun Hartwig down. Unluckily, Hartwig's attack resulted in Sylvia trying to flee from him up a wobbly ladder that broke and sent her falling. She dies from her wounds soon after.
Mitigating features?
None.
Heinousness?
The Recap page claims that there exists a "series bible" that clarifies Hartwig is a serial offender that I have yet to find proof of myself, but tbh even with just what we get in the two-part episode I think he's got enough. While this show could get dark, having an actual honest to God villain was rare, and Hartwig being a child rapist and killer does wonders. He's responsible for arguably the darkest episode in the entire show, and his rapsheet is raping the kid Sylvia and ruining her life, then trying to rape her again before attempting to kill her and Albert, actually succeeding (albeit inadvertently) in Sylvia's case.
Final Verdict?
Keep the creep
Edited by Ravok on May 10th 2024 at 3:00:51 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Not the Eye
Hartwig, love a CM from a crazy source
Hartwig.
I have some doubts about Sanctus, the dude has an entire Order under his hand and while mass murder with demons and trying to digest Nero and Kyrie alive, as well as killing Credo is definitely terrible, Arkham is a random dude, sacrificing his wife and becoming a powerful being plans mass chaos throughout the Earth. I’m not saying that Sanctus should be cut, but of all the keepers, he is perhaps the weakest. And as others have said, Mundus doesn't count from the reboot because of his concern for his son.
Rebel Moon
His murder of the royal family needs to be spoiled, because this is perhaps his biggest secret, and also why Cora turned against him.
Edited by Ghal-Sur on May 10th 2024 at 12:44:19 PM