Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Diego
Not the Eye
Yogg-Saron and Diego
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
AA killer
Goku Black
Diego
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Diego. And with him and Griffon I think we can officially keep the Red Dead page.
Abstaining on Yogg until someone kindly explains what the Emerald Nightmare and Curse of Flesh ARE.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ACW The Emerald Nightmare is a sort of reality warping infection altering the Emerald Dream(an alternate reality version of Azeroth without civilization) and its inhabitants. Anybody afflicted by the Nightmare is eternally damned to suffer a literal waking nightmare and is heavily mutated.
The curse of flesh is also difficult to explain in a brief lore summary, but it's essentially a curse on certain titan created beings to make them weak and susceptible to the worst of old god corruption.
For how restricted Yogg-Saron is in his prison, he causes a whole lot of damage, potentially catastrophic to all of Azeroth and the Emerald Dream with the Nightmare and Curse.
Edited by MasterWaldon on Apr 27th 2024 at 3:32:26 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Appreciated. I'll give a yes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Heghodge
to Yogg Seron
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Yogg-Saron and Diego.
Salt Upon Wounds.
Ramirez.
Yogg-Saron.
General Diego.
Also having gone over it with Ravok, here's a revisit I've been meaning to do.
American Mary is a dark and depressing 2012 horror drama starring Katharine Isabelle. Set in Seattle, Mary Mason is a down on her luck med student who is looking to make ends meet. She considers getting a job at a mob owned strip club, which snowballs her into doing some under the books surgery. Realizing she can make money through body mod surgeries, Mary is soon assaulted which causes her to go on a downward spiral. The aftermath of both causes Mary's new life for herself to come down as soon as it lifts off.
I brought up the movie twice several years ago. And while it was shot down both times, Ravok and I talked over it recently and we think these two might be worth a shot. Today I yet again bring up the film's secondary antagonists, Dr. Grant and Dr. Walsh.
Who are they ? What do they do ?
Dr. Grant — who unfortunately has Alan as a first name — and Walsh are a pair of surgeons teaching Mary's medical classes. At first they seem to be harsh but reasonable teachers. Grant gets on Mary's case for having a phone in class and missing others, despite her potential as a surgeon. And Walsh is introduced giving a lecture about breaking the bad news to patients.
As a demonstration, Walsh has Mary falsely inform a patient's family that their father had a heart attack during surgery...and then tells Mary to falsely tell the family that the father is dead, leaving them devastated. Walsh also tells Mary she might have what it takes to be a "slasher" — a nickname they have for their clique of surgeons; apparently the "thrill" of cutting people up can get to you, and Grant tells Mary that Walsh has a hobby of drawing people being eaten by wild animals.
All these are pretty passive, but soon Walsh spots Mary talking to a stripper she met on the side, and mistakes Mary for a sex worker. Shortly thereafter, Walsh and Grant invite her to a party in the latter's apartment. Mary attends a party, where several escorts are invited. While Grant is talking to Mary, Walsh spikes her drink, and as the drugs kick in, the men at the party begin to assault and film the other drugged women. A immobile but barely conscious Mary is taken and raped by Grant himself — who chokes her during the act — while Walsh masturbates over another woman being gang raped.
Broken and vengeful by the experience, Mary reaches out to strip club owner and minor mob boss, Billy Barker, who has Grant abducted. Learning about body modification, Mary mutilates and tortures Grant — removing his limbs, cutting out his tongue, removing his limbs and implicitly castrating him. Mary starts a mob funded body modification business, making a name for herself and keeping Grant alive but locked up to practice her more extreme body modification methods.
However, when Grant is reported missing, Walsh points to Mary as a suspect along with their other victims. While the police don't make the connection at first, they do uncover Grant and Walsh's history. It turns out Grant and Walsh regularly host sex parties, wherin the women are drugged, raped and filmed throughout. Mary soon kills Grant after he's found by a security guard — as well as the security guard himself. Despite Mary telling him not to worry about Walsh, Billy watches their tapes, including Mary's assault. In retaliation, Billy kidnaps Walsh behind her back, beating him to death in an alley.
The police soon uncover Mary's assault, and her abduction of Grant...after Mary herself is killed by a disgruntled husband of one of her clients.
Mitigating Qualities ?
Between them, Walsh is the easier keep, but he and Grant have no real redeeming qualities between them. They have a professional amicable relationship, but share secret fucked up tastes, and run a clique of sorts with like minded doctors.
But the reason I'm less sure of Grant is how they play his torture and fate. Make no mistake, this man is an Asshole Victim who deserved his payback. I wouldn't say they were going for an Alas, Poor Villain fate, but they still play it for horror; like he spends the latter half of the movie in this whimpering, miserable state. Although almost no one shows him any pity or sympathy for it. But when they were previously voted down, it was argued that Grant's And I Must Scream state was Karmic Overkill.
But over the years we previously let other CMs slide who suffered similar fates; from The Perfection, Anton suffers almost the exact mutilation and torture that Grant went through; as does Clarence Darby in Law Abiding Citizen. And like those two, Grant's torture by Mary was for, y'know, raping her.
As for Walsh...his fate is being unceremoniously beaten to death and smothered in a plastic bag.
Heinous Standard ?
I'm not going to lie, this movie is pretty dark.
Mary becomes a Villain Protagonist over the course, not only torturing and eventually killing Grant, but she also kills a security guard who finds Grant. She also considered poisoning a detective looking into her case, but decides against it, and intimidates a stripper she saw fellatiating Billy in a fit of jealousy. And while she does run a body modification business, her customers are just that; paying and consenting, albeit eccentric clients.
There's also Billy himself being a small-time mob boss. We don't see that much of their activity, other than Billy having Mary perform surgery on one of his men who was tortured. He also goes out and kills Walsh behind Mary's back. And finally, there's the husband of Mary's first customer; early in the movie, Mary is paid by a woman to give her Barbie Doll Anatomy — when the woman's husband finds out, he goes on a rampage and mortally wounds Mary before being killed in self-defense.
Now with all that said ? Grant and Walsh outweigh them. They are a pair of serial rapists, who run a "club" of sorts of like minded creeps; hosting parties where woman are regularly drugged, raped and filmed. We see this go down at one of their parties, and a police detective tells Mary they found multiple tapes of theirs with other victims and parties.
While Mary's torture of Grant was grisly, it was done in retribution for her assault. Their main competition is Mary herself, and Ruby's husband, both having two murder victims respectively. Gant and Walsh have multiple onscreen and an established pattern that overshadows anything Mary or her associates do onscreen.
Like I said, it's a "Quantity over Quality" thing.
Edited by Beast on Apr 27th 2024 at 6:37:02 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Goku Black
grant and Walsh
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cautious yes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think I’m gonna stay out of this one but no issue with what the thread decides!
to Yogg-Saron and Generalissimo Javior Diego.
to the AA Killer. Just isn't quite as bad as the other serial killers. But a great selection of candidates Overlord and Mir.
I'll also abstain on Doctor Grant and Walsh. They do seem the worst, but the film's world just seems a bit to messed up.
On the Red Dead Page
- Chapter 6: Colonel Henry Favours is an elderly US Army commander facing retirement at the end of a long and completely undistinguished career. Seeking to erase his deserved reputation for cowardice and incompetence, Favours realizes a way to win glory. Stationed as the liaison to the Wapiti Lakota tribe, Favours begins to attempt to antagonize the tribe by having them assaulted, sending their children to reform schools, burning down their sacred shrines, and taking their horses so they cannot hunt, dooming them to starvation. Favours even withholds vital vaccines and medicine to kill their children and infirm, hoping to provoke them into a war so he can gain the "glory" of wiping them out and taking their supposedly oil-rich lands (which later turn out to have no oil deposits at all). Favours also provokes an attack at supposed peace talks and frames the good-hearted Captain Monroe for treason to execute him, willing to stop at nothing to murder an innocent tribe of natives simply to enjoy his undeserved glory.
- "American Dreams" sidequest: Edmund Lowry Jr.
I think the stuff before the colons are redundant, we don't have anything similar for Fussar and it's not like the chapters or sidequests are that long.
- Colonel Henry Favours is an elderly US Army commander facing retirement at the end of a long and completely undistinguished career. Seeking to erase his deserved reputation for cowardice and incompetence, Favours realizes a way to win glory. Stationed as the liaison to the Wapiti Lakota tribe, Favours begins to attempt to antagonize the tribe by having them assaulted, sending their children to reform schools, burning down their sacred shrines, and taking their horses so they cannot hunt, dooming them to starvation. Favours even withholds vital vaccines and medicine to kill their children and infirm, hoping to provoke them into a war so he can gain the "glory" of wiping them out and taking their supposedly oil-rich lands (which later turn out to have no oil deposits at all). Favours also provokes an attack at supposed peace talks and frames the good-hearted Captain Monroe for treason to execute him, willing to stop at nothing to murder an innocent tribe of natives simply to enjoy his undeserved glory.
- Edmund Lowry Jr.
High: I feel this is perhaps something that should be brought up on the cleanup thread rather than proposal one. But generally we do include where the characters appear, the thing is the other characters appeal in multiple sections throughout the game, whilst Favours only appears in Chapter Six and Lowry only appears in that side mission.
Not the Eye
Grant and Walsh
Lizzid people!
Grant and Walsh.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sorry, got them mixed up.
Personally, I feel like it is unnecessarily cumbersome on the eyes. We didn't add a specification for Fussar even though he only appears on Guarma, and with less screentime than Favours.
Just to add, I also did a minor edit to correct the "I" in Colm's entry's final quote to "I've".
Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Apr 27th 2024 at 7:06:45 AM
I think Fussar actually has a cameo appearance in Chapter Four at Bronte's party. We still probably should move this discussion to the other thread.
To Diego and also in advance for Griffon.
Edited by Bluedeadredemption on Apr 27th 2024 at 10:29:06 AM
Grant and Walsh
Got a new EP from my 9-1-1 binge
What is the work?
9-1-1 is a popular show by Ryan Murphy that details the exploits of first responders in Los Angeles. This candidate is from some of the closing episodes of Season 5, specifically "Hero Complex" and its prequel "May Day".
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
Jonah Greenway is a newbie to the LAFD who is introduced several episodes earlier as a promising paramedic who joins the crew of Henrietta "Hen" Wilson. However, after supporting character Claudette Collins is injured in a fire and dies en route to the hospital in Jonah's care, Jonah's true nature is revealed.
- An awkward child, Jonah was obsessed with the macabre, sketching vivid illustrations of the French Revolution. leading to him being teased by his classmates. However, Jonah would be hailed as a hero after giving CPR to the school's elderly bus driver who had suffered a heart attack. Basking in the newfound attention, which included a Key to the City and a full college ride, Jonah begins to view himself as a deserving hero.
- After becoming a paramedic, Jonah takes steps to ensure he receives the same attention he feels entitled to. He does this by performing covert malpractice on patients (often by injecting them with unneeded drugs) so their hearts will stop and he will receive glory for being able to revive them. However, he got sloppy and caused at least two of his victims to die.
- To avoid suspicion, Jonah transfers out of Chicago and travels across the country as a paramedic to continue pursuing glory with his sick methods, leaving a trail of bodies across Miami, Dallas, and Denver before settling again in Los Angeles.
- While working with the LAFD, Jonah continues inducing cardiac arrest patients in his goal to be seen as a hero, killing a driver who had suffered a minor concussion in a traffic accident and later a teenage boy who had been suffering from spider bites in the process. After Claudette becomes his latest victim despite having been in stable condition, Hen and her friend Chimney become suspicious and launch an investigation.
- Abducting the duo after realising they were onto him, Jonah revels in his actions and compares himself to a god deciding who could live and who could die. Showing no remorse for all the people he's killed and even chiding Hen for not giving him a chance to "prove himself" and snooping, Jonah begins torturing a sedated Chimney, causing him to flatline twice and reviving him as a display of his "heroism".
- Ultimately being defeated with his own defribilator, Jonah is arrested and led away in handcuffs, grinning with self-satisifaction as he's placed into the car.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
While he is shown being teased in the flashbacks to his youth, those same kids start praising him and call him a hero after he saves the bus driver, so no bullying Freudian Excuse. The idea of him being an Angel of Mercy is also explicitly kiboshed with several of his victims not suffering from life-threatening conditions, with him targeting whoever he was left alone with. Although he does claim he always intended to revive each victim, the facts remain that he still has a significant kill count and he put their lives in danger himself for his own glory, while not showing a shred for remorse for anyone who ended up dead.
Henious Standard
Clears it. Criminal Minds style characters like him and Jeffrey Hudson are rare in 9-1-1 and as terrible as Hudson is, the only kill on his belt is his lawyer. Jonah has murdered at least eight people and likely more solely to give himself the rush of being seen as a hero. He also killed off an established supporting character in Claudette. while not sparing his victims a thought and moving on to the next one to quench his thirst for an ego boost
Final Verdict
Keeper
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Not the Eye
Yogg-Saron, can't believe we overlooked the Emerald Nightmare thing.
Yes to Diego. I look forward to Griffon, because him being cut never sat right with me.
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