Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Carnage
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, I'm sorry. After all the Palpatines and Friezas, I thought we could use some variety.
And to be fair, my last several EPs over the past almost five months have been for Goth (graphic novel), Riz Holmes, Lorenzo Medici, Frankie Robles & Daimon Dunn, Knull, Hugh Budleigh, the Seer, and Cama Zotz—with only Knull being symbiote-related.
Edited by Arawn999 on Mar 28th 2024 at 1:33:46 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Okano, Pocketcat and clone Carnage
Fair point. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Yes to the clone of the guy bound to the scarlet amorphous slime that was offspring of the noir colored version joined to the guy played by Topher Grace
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Okano and Pocketcat.
The fact that Cletus leaves a generous tip makes me hesitate.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Pocketcat's a tough one. Admittedly, I am much less familiar with Termina, so I'm gonna abstain. I haven't played either. I've watched a Let's Play and other videos of the first game.
Also, he reminds me of Cool Cat from Cool Cat Saves the Kids.
I will also abstain on Cloneage for now. I'm sure the tip is just a whim on his part and not actually mitigating, but I will ere on the side of caution.
Anywho, I am making good progress on my Rebirth EP. It'll be up within a couple of days. I will also talk about Scarlet then, but I agree with the general consensus that, even if her Even Evil Has Standards moment isn't genuine, she's still got to compete with Hojo.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Mar 28th 2024 at 3:56:24 AM
Goku Black
carnage and Okno
Here's an idea that I've previously suggested for this forum and that would be Kostas Becker from The Simpsons two-part one-off Simpflix episode "A Serious Flanders".
(NOTE: Since Disney purchased 20th Century Studios in March 2019, entries from shows like The Simpsons can be put in the Complete Monster page for works produced by The Walt Disney Company and its subsidiaries such as 20th Century Studios, 20th Television, 20th Television Animation and Searchlight Pictures)
Who is Kostas Becker? What has he done?
- Kostas Becker is a notorious debt collector and gangster who, along with his associates Seamus and Collette, are introduced by having the Rich Texan captured and killed before having him chopped up and has his face ripped off at the start of the episode.
- Upon arriving in Springfield, Becker and his associates capture Homer Simpson so he can act as leverage against his neighbour Ned Flanders and after that, Becker takes the lives of Fat Tony and his crew during a shootout at the Lard Lad donut shop, with Disco Stu and Charles Montgomery Burns getting caught in the crossfire during the shootout, and to top it all off, he forces Ned and his sons Rod and Todd to go into hiding in Wyoming for three years and tries to have him killed when Marge unintentionally reveals his hiding spot.
Redeeming Qualities?
- Kostas Becker stands out as the darkest and most vile villain in the entire series, has far fewer comedic moments than any of the previous villains, such as Mr. Burns, Sideshow Bob and even Russ Cargill, and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Heinousness?
- Mr. Burns, Sideshow Bob, Fat Tony and, to an extent, Russ Cargill have their redeeming qualities. By contrast, Becker stands out as the most vile and murderous character in this normally lighthearted series.
Final Verdict
- I would personally say yes to this proposal, but it up to you to decide.
Be sure to share your thoughts on this suggestion and many thanks.
Pretty sure he was rejected due to…. Well, Simpsons being Simpsons.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Kostas. He has several scenes of being played for laughs, such as hm telling a story being skipped through because the show's like "lol his story is so boring", and his defeat is an Overly Long Gag.
Very weak for Kostas; I personally think he has potential (either that, or my Vile Villain, Saccharine Show-overfixated brain is turned on again)
Edited by LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime on Mar 28th 2024 at 5:58:20 AM
You've been kicked out of the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. :(
Then what about Randall Boggs from Monsters, Inc., another entry on the Complete Monster page for works made by The Walt Disney Company and its subsidaries, since he does have a few legitimately funny moments throughout the film such as his "Winds of Change" line and when he finds out that he captured Mike instead of Boo?
Not the Eye
I agree that having few funny moments isn’t inherently disqualifing, but I still don’t feel the simpsons is kind of work to have candidate. I Honestly think that if not for his death he would fit much better as Magnificent Bastard.
Kostas
With Randall, the “winds of change” line is when he is introduced as just a jerk, with it only being after the line that his true villainy is revealed. And him finding out he kidnapped Mike by mistake isn’t even a comedic moment.
Edited by Evanpotter09 on Mar 28th 2024 at 1:23:37 PM
What, like it's hard?
Woagh
to Clone Cletus Kasady and to Kostas Becker
The Emperor of Evil!
I should also note
"NOTE: Since Disney purchased 20th Century Studios in March 2019, entries from shows like The Simpsons can be put in the Complete Monster page for works produced by The Walt Disney Company and its subsidiaries such as 20th Century Studios, 20th Television, 20th Television Animation and Searchlight Pictures"
That's not how it works, it doesn't matter if Disney or any other studios bought the rights to these shows. What matters if the work itself is conductive and if the villain meets the criteria.
to Kostas.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 28th 2024 at 9:55:30 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
Accidentally double posted.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 28th 2024 at 9:55:14 AM
Kano and Pocketcat, and Carnage (could use a breather from all Palpatine's)
Kostas for reasons others said.
I'm still voting a cautious on Kostas
Kostas, the Simpsons is inherently too comedic, plus even if Russ Cargill and others don't count, their actions still contribute to the heinous standard
Carrot Clone
Kostas
Goku Black
kostas
for Cletus's clone.
for Kostas.
What is the work?
Carnage (Vol. 4) is a Marvel Comics series focused around... well... Carnage.In the wake of Death of the Venomverse, the now apotheosized Carnage symbiote finds itself confronted by the question "What is a god?" and is unable to find an answer on its own. Creating a clone of Cletus Kasady, it tasks him with helping it find the answer to this question and fulfil its goal of finding and killing Eddie Brock to claim the throne of Earth-616's King in Black. The clone of Cletus, in turn, sets out to create a Religion of Evil, while Agent Anti-Venom (Flash Thompson) sets out to put a stop to Carnage's plans.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
Abducting socialite Nathanial Jones, Cletus traps him in a glass box, scribbles a bunch of ciphers on it for his new followers to theorize over, and rigs it to fill up with superheated water—boiling Nathanial to death and melting his flesh off in the middle of Times Square while horrified onlookers watch and film it. Resuming his hunt for people named after the 12 Apostles, Cletus waxes nihilistic and expresses anger that the original Cletus hadn't indoctrinated the world into the cult of chaos and/or slaughtered everyone. Visiting a bar frequented by the original Cletus, the clone is furious that he hadn't just slaughtered everyone there... though when the Carnage symbiote asks why they aren't doing so, he replies that it's for "[the] same reason a benevolent god doesn't wipe away all illness and pain".
Tracking down the original Cletus (somehow alive and human again) and killing a few bystanders, Carnage attempts to swallow him whole. When this backfires due to the original having poisoned his blood, the clone settles for exsanguinating him, cutting off the top of his head, and eating his brain to absorb his memories and consciousness. Having inspired his followers to start committing murders in his name and anticipating Agent Anti-Venom coming after him, Cletus pays a visit to Flash's mom and poisons her with Polonium-210 to force him to weaken himself healing her. Framing Flash for the murder of one of his victims, Carnage taunts him over his shortcomings and tries to absorb his symbiote to make himself immune to Anti-Venom and find out where Eddie Brock is. Trapping Flash in the Darkforce dimension, Cletus then hunts down the Venom symbiote's current host, Dylan Brock. Murdering the son of the cop Eddie and the Venom symbiote killed in Amazing Spider-Man #300, Cletus leaves his corpse on display at Dylan's apartment, takes Dylan's backpack and plants a bomb in it, then drops it off at Dylan's new workplace while slaughtering his coworkers to taunt him.
Cletus clues Dylan in 15 seconds before the bomb goes off, revelling in his "brother's" terror, then going to Our Lady of Saints Church and kills the parishioners to pass the time while waiting for Venom to show up. When Dylan arrives, Cletus baits Venom into weakening themselves saving a man hanging from the bell, and then forces Dylan to relive all the Venom symbiote's worst actions—including everything it did to Eddie and Anne—which it had kept secret from him. Ordered to kill Dylan by the Carnage symbiote, Cletus rips the Venom symbiote off him and impales him through the heart—mockingly calling it a mercy killing... only to be caught off-guard as Dylan's King in Black powers activate in the moment of his death and pull the Carnage symbiote off him into the Symbiote Hive, leaving him naked, alone, and confused.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This Cletus starts out a xerox of the original as he was back in Amazing Spider-Man #345. However, he quickly diverges in that his MO isn't simple random slaughter or sticking it to the Man via mass murder and chaos-worship, but establishing a Religion of Evil centred around the Carnage symbiote with himself as its apostle—later developing a bit of an A God Am I complex, revelling in the act of killing and gloating that it makes him feel like a god. He's Faux Affably Evil and sadistic to the max—willing to play nice to get what he wants, as seen with his interactions with the barista, but revelling in causing death and suffering.The main sticking points I can think of are the following:
However, given that he still kills random people when the mood strikes (disembowelling a hitchhiker implied to be a fellow serial killer after learning his name is Mark, leaving his severed head on a signpost for kicks and giggles, then killing a passerby who tries to perform a citizen's arrest; and killing the parishioners at Our Lady of Saints Church), is more than happy to rig sadistic execution devices (something I don't recall the original Cletus doing) to provide a spectacle for his followers, and hunts down the most deadly radioactive poison he can find to use on an innocent old woman to bait Flash Thompson into a trap... I'd say that guts any notion of the above being meant as redeeming.
As far as Freudian excuses go, he reveals that Roscoe Kasady was an abusive man who beat Cletus and accidentally killed his wife when she tried to protect Cletus from him, sneering that he was a pathetic failure who couldn't even get away with murder... but that hasn't been deemed disqualifying for the original Cletus so I don't see why it would for this one—especially since Cletus had already killed his grandmother and tortured his mother's dog to death at the time. He's also something of a pawn to the Carnage symbiote, albeit a willing one—not quite understanding what it's planning, but going along with it regardless. He's jealous of the Carnage symbiote's lingering bond with the original Cletus Kasady, and goes out of his way to hunt down and eliminate him out of concern that he could pose a threat to their plans.
Are they bad enough?
His body count is still small compared to the original's (a body count in the tens to hundreds of thousands, rivalled only by plagues and dictators), but is already in the dozens;note and given that he's performed a Kill and Replace on the original Cletus Kasady, it seems he's here to stay and it's only gonna get bigger.Final verdict?
I'd sayEdited by Arawn999 on Mar 28th 2024 at 12:18:13 PM