low-poly Shinri
Thanks for creating thread. Tales really needed one. I also like to point out that the Tales Series page also has ZCEs
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Yeah, sadly AwesomeMusic.Tales Series is a more personalised audience reaction, so there's not much to do for context-issues unless you actually played the game and can explain why the music was so awesome.
I'm still chipping my way through the sandbox of franchise-wide tropes (wow I'm a lot slower than I thought I'd be), but I did just finish Tales of Xillia's main story so I'm going to be cleaning up that work page too in the future.
low-poly Shinri
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I’ll see what I can do to help for the rest of the franchise
Edited by Ayumi-chan on Aug 21st 2022 at 9:03:13 PM
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low-poly Shinri
Found this on Welcome Back, Traitor
- Tales Series: Raven in Tales of Vesperia, arguably Kratos in Tales of Symphonia. Also Anise in Tales of the Abyss. In Tales of Destiny remake, they try to do it on Leon. but...
- Leon's case is brought up in Tales of Destiny 2. Keep in mind this was before Leon's death was a Heroic Sacrifice. The current party is shocked when they find out Judas is Leon Magnus but in the end, decide his later actions meant more than his past. Perhaps Justified as none of his crimes were against the current party specifically, and through a Lotus-Eater Machine they saw he didn't at all enjoy what he'd done.
- Potentially Zelos in Tales of Symphonia, who admits that while he was a Fake Defector when he turned over Colette to Pronyma, he was really leaking information to the villains.
- Specifically, in Tales of Vesperia Judith and Raven both turn against the party, the former by crippling their only mode of transportation and abandoning them, the latter by kidnapping Estelle and handing her over to the Big Bad then later actively trying to kill them (albeit under orders). Both are welcomed back into the party with no fuss whatsoever.
- Well, really, Judith more or less had a noble cause for crippling their ship. Her crime is trying to act on her noble goal alone, rather than with her friends. As for Raven, he was actually not really trying to kill them as much as he planned on dying there, whether it was by the party's hand or the location crumbling down on him. This was made evident when while clashing blades with Yuri, Raven suddenly halted his attacks, allowing a rather surprised Yuri to slash him through the chest. He never really planned on killing them as much as he was more than ready for his own life to end; he even allows them all to escape immediately after the fight.
- Also, in the latter's case, the party takes turns slugging them in the face. Yuri also makes it clear that said character's life (weather they live or die) belongs to "Brave Vesperia" from that point on.
- Tales of Xillia subverts the trend with Alvin. He betrays the party repeatedly and is let back in every time... but Easily Forgiven is not in effect here. Milla at one point of the game pretty much admits that the only reason Alvin is kept around is because he is a loose cannon that would follow them either way and it's safer for all of them when he is right where they can see him. At the same time though, it's worth noting that this trope plays a huge part in Alvin's motivation to really redeem himself.
I asked what can I do about this on the Natter cleanup, but All i got was “Delete natter and rewrite it”. Unfortunately, I only played Vesperia so I can’t comment on the others. Any rewrite?
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Oof yeah a lot of these have context issues. I'd just delete the first bullet point outright.
- I'm vaguely familiar with Tales of Destiny 2 and Leon's situation, but I don't think it counts as an example anyway since, like the example admits, Leon isn't being welcomed back by the same people he betrayed in the first game, so it's probably okay to cut it since it's not an example.
- Also not super familiar with Zelos and Tales of Symphonia, probably best to comment this one out for lack of context as to how the party welcomes him back despite his actions. Someone else can add more context to it later.
- If you're into Tales of Vesperia, I'll let you handle those entries' issues.
- I don't know if Tales of Xillia necessarily subverts the trope because it doesn't set up that everyone seems ready to forgive him, pretty much everyone is doubtful of Alvin from the very first time he seems to sell them out. And you're not supposed to list an Averted Trope unless it's notable that it never comes up. So I'd probably just cut it since his whole deal with trying to be trusted again probably falls better under Forgiven, but Not Forgotten or Redemption Quest or The Atoner.
So the new version would probably be something like:
- [Commented out] Potentially Zelos in Tales of Symphonia, who admits that while he was a Fake Defector when he turned over Colette to Pronyma, he was really leaking information to the villains.
- Tales of Vesperia: Example text
Because I don't think we can use the Tales Series bullet point if there's only one game visibly listed. (And off the top of my head, I can't think of any other examples in the games I've played.)
Planeswalker
Zelos: It says "potentially" because there's the potential of player choice. In 9/10 of the endings he's really easily forgiven because he decides what he did was wrong and joins the party again at the eleventh hour after getting beaten up and a speech from Lloyd, but in 1/10 endings he doesn't atone and he gets killed by the party.
Judas doesn't count, he takes pains to avoid the party members he wronged in the past. Also, in my opinion Alvin isn't an aversion at all. He betrays the party something like five times and every time they just shrug it off like "yeah, that's Alvin alright" with no consequences. I'd say Raven is an aversion given he's more forced to rejoin with the slugging and "your life belongs to Brave Vesperia now" line.
Edited by PhiSat on Jul 26th 2023 at 10:53:23 AM
Oissu!
Swapped in actual trope entries for VideoGame.Tales Series. Not sure what I can do about the series' description though, since I don't know enough about the gameplay mechanics to update it myself.
This thread is prompted by the state of the VideoGame.Tales Series page itself, though its related subpages and individual game pages do have enough issues that I'd like to tackle them too.
The Main Work Page
So as it currently is, the bullet points on that page aren't actually proper trope entries, but they're far too general/lacking context to be valid examples on their own. I've created Sandbox.Video Game Tales Series Cleanup, and I've done my best to match the general descriptions to actual tropesnote and I collected some of the crosswicks to the Tales Series to scrape together some context.I've gone through tropes A-C and foldered entries that need more context/may be too general, and I also created a folder for tropes that I think are misuse, but left visible so anyone who knows more about the source game can object to them (preferably in this thread).
I would like to flesh out the series' description (and hopefully remove some of the gushing going on...) using some of the stuff in the "Unsorted" folder, but that's kinda low priority for the time being.
The Subpages
There is a lot of misuse/gushing/complaining/ZCE/indentation problems you'd find from pages that were largely edited pre-2015. I've cleaned up Xillia 2 and Zestiria on my own, and Berseria seems to have held up fine, but as I said, I'm not familiar with any games prior to Xillia 2, so beyond commenting out Zero Context Examples there's not much I can do for the others.I'd like to standardise the formatting of subpages to either something seen in AntiFrustrationFeatures.Tales Series or AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Tales Series depending on the length and if it needs to be foldered at all.
Other cleanup stuff:
So all of that said, I guess I'm gonna go back to chipping my way at the "To Check" folder.