To-do list:
- Remove Porn/Hentai/Ecchi works that are intended to be racy.
Best Known for the Fanservice, according to its page, describes works to which the following applies: "This is the common tendency for fanservice to overshadow everything else about a work."
However, either the trope has drifted in scope or was overscoped from the beginning. First of all, it has the usual issue where any sexual content, innuendo, etc. is referred to as "fanservice" regardless of intent or circumstances. It also tends to collect overly horny writing like all other fanservice tropes.
The bigger problem, though, is that "best known" is used very loosely and often just means "known," or sometimes "known by this troper who is typing with one hand." What a work is "best known" for is inherently subjective and subject to Fan Myopia — an argument might be made that the trope should require citations to be less subjective — but a good litmus test might be: Assuming you've heard of the work, do you have any idea what the "best known" fanservice in question even is? If not, it probably isn't an example.
Wick check: Here. Restricted this to YMMV pages since anything else is likely to be a pothole or questionable usage of the trope in the first place. I split this into a few categories:
- The definition that best matches the title and description: fanservice that is genuinely the best known thing about the work. This is not as common as the trope description would lead one to believe.
- Fanservice that is well-known and/or iconic, but not the best known thing, or at least one well-known thing among many.
- Fanservice was heavily played up during the promo of a work and may have been the best-known thing before it came out.
- Fanservice exists, but does not overshadow the rest of the work. In the wick check this is by far the largest category. Often accompanied by the phrase "Some people remember..." or similar.
- Fanservice exists, does not overshadow the rest of the work, but This Troper is going to be horny about it on the page anyway.
- Not an example/other.
Wick totals:
- Risque content that is the best known element of the work: 9/50: 18%
- Very well-known risque content but not the only well known aspect: 7/50: 14%
- Fanservice exists but is not the best-known thing: 15/50: 30%
- Was the best-known thing during promo/early on, no longer is: 5/50: 10%
- "This character is hot"/one-handed troping": 10/50: 20%
- Not an example at all: 1/50: 2%
- Unclear/other: 3/50: 6%
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 1:46:44 PM
I feel like I'm not explaining myself properly. I do not think whether it is a major or minor part of the work has any bearing whatsoever on whether the trope is in effect. All that matters is whether the work is BEST KNOWN for the fanservice. Otherwise, the name also needs to be changed.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
IDK, if a work is literally just around to get people horny, then obviously it'll be known for that. It's relevant because there's a major difference between a movie with one sexual scene that gets a sexual reputation, and literal porn.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of excluding Porn/Hentai/Ecchi works that are intended to be racy and limit it to examples where the fanservice is a minor part of the work
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Angry babby
So where would a non-porny movie full of fanservice that ultimately still has a plot go, like Basic Instinct?
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
the Retromancer
If you mean examples like at YMMV.Basic Instinct I think they should just be removed, though it listing Just Here for Godzilla within it may be a potential alternative if the context fits.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Angry babby
Isn't Just Here for Godzilla also kind of about comparatively minor parts of a work?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I was making the opposite argument, I don't think it's the prominent point of the work, I just assume it's very present and marketed to be sexy.
Edited by mightymewtron on May 31st 2022 at 11:09:14 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
the Retromancer
I don't see the trope description saying that, but in that case just removing is even safer.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
This is exactly what I was trying to avoid. Basic Instinct, to me, seems like a very obvious example of this trope. The movie has a plot, it was nominated for several Oscars, it genuinely was important to neo-noir as a genre, yet it is. to put it as simply as possible, best known for the fanservice. The fact that the fanservice was intentional and a fairly major part of the film's marketing does not change the fact that it is what it is best known for, where everything else otherwise notable has receded in memory.
Honestly I regret even making this thread now since I have totally failed at making my point. If this is what the trope means now, then it should be renamed Best Known For Minor Fanservice or something like that. The name as it stands right now is a lie.
Edited by tropette on Jun 12th 2022 at 11:17:37 AM
Not to mention that limiting it to minor examples does not solve the fundamental problem here, which is people shoehorning in mentions of some tangential part of a work that is not "best known," because that one person happens to be horny for it. If anything, the proposed revision gives that crap the go-ahead. The limiting factor HAS to be "best known" or else there is no trope.
Edited by tropette on Jun 12th 2022 at 11:22:37 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I mean, that was always part of the definition, so I'm not sure how you're proposing we cut the misuse outside of cleanup.
As for the "minor part of the work" thing, I think you can think of it similar to, say, Overshadowed by Controversy. For OBC, we exclude examples where the "controversy" is just the contents of the work itself, since it's the work "overshadowing" the work. To me, the logic here is that if the fanservice is a big part of the work, then what people know it for is for the main content of the work, which you can say about anything (e.g., "All people know about Jurassic Park is the Dinosaurs"). For reactions like these to even be worth discussing, they should pertain to unexpected reactions, which is also why Ensemble Dark Horse is restricted to minor characters — because "liking the main character" is what you're supposed to do.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Angry babby
I think we should rework it to be "fanservice is not the PRIMARY PURPOSE of the work" as opposed to it being a minor part" of the work. That cuts out the ecchi/exploitation examples, but not the blockbuster films and such that have a plot besides pure fanservice. Basic Instinct has a lot of fanservice but (I assume) it's not a softcore porn where it just stops the plot constantly for gratuitous sexy scenes. Same with, say, Tomb Raider — lots of time spent looking at an attractive PC but she's doing other stuff.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I'd be okay with that.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
As this thread has been stalled for almost 3 months, I made Sandbox.Best Known For The Fanservice. Not sure how to incorporate the new criteria though. The description looks fine to me at first glance otherwise.
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't see anything wrong with the sandbox.
(she/her)
The sandbox is just the copied over from the description. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But if the description and definition are fine, then that means we don't have to do anything to the trope.
It may not be spelled out but I think one can infer that the trope is for works where the fanservice isn't supposed to be the main selling point of the work based on the current the description. I don't know if that's something we need to spell out as the description is long enough. I don't think people are going to notice an extra line.
I think we could have just cleaned the trope without TRS but I guess we had a case for a rename. We can just go straight to cleaning the trope if rewriting the description isn't necessary.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 7:14:49 AM
Macron's notes
Wouldn't hurt to have one extra sentence, especially given we just had an ATT report
that concerned this trope.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
While that's true, that edit war was unrelated to the issues discussed here.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Not sure what part of that can help the description if the problem was ZCE and possible misuse, people liking the female cast more than the story just isn't this trope.
Though now that I think about it I wonder if there are other misuses like that.
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 2nd 2022 at 2:50:23 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
This is probably a cleanup thread issue more than anything.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
HoMM Fan
I'm agreeing that a cleanup may be the best approach.
The definition is pretty clear on what the intent is, so unless we disambig (which I'm not in favor of even if I don't like this trope personally), I'm not sure there's much more that could be done to patch up the trope itself.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
(she/her)
Yeah, there really should have been an attempt at a clean up effort for this trope beforehand.
As there doesn't seem to be anything we need to actually do with the trope, I think we can move this to a clean up thread and close if there aren't any objections.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 11:01:59 AM
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I agree with closing this thread in favor of a cleanup thread.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Yeah, I agree, a cleanup thread sounds like the appropriate action at this point.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Lol, anyone want to make one then? I would but I make so many of these and IDK what the OP would say.
Or we could just move the thread and make this one the cleanup.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Crown Description:
What should be done with Best Known For The Fanservice?
It's hooked.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.