Characters.Pokémon Reorganization/Cleanup

I'm of the opinion that we should bring up that Regigigas' Slow Start ability can be nullified in Double Battles via things like Skill Swap or Worry Seed. This is because on multiple pages and sub-pages such as formerly the Junk Rare subsection, the descriptions are a little too critical of the Slow Start ability and never bring up how you can easily get rid of it in Double Battles.

Hi!

As it is, we should keep meta/competitive talk away from the Pokémon pages unless they specifically talk about those things. While it is possible to remove Slow Start from Regigigas, the fact that it cannot do it by its own means that it is crippled for most in-game formats. You can argue that maybe the pages are bit too harsh on Regigigas due to Slow Star (mainly due to the "moving continents with ropes" thing), but the opposite might not work.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

I think we should tone down the harshness for the Colossal Pokémon given most of its entries on different pages exclusively talk about how "worthless" it is due to Slow Start.

Hi!

On Clefable's entry on Pokemon Unite Supports, the entry was changed to say Clefable is female, but I don't remember the Fairy Pokémon being confirmed to be female in the game.

Hi!

AFAIK, each playable Pokémon's gender are listed internally, with Blissey, Tsareena, and later Gardevoir and Wigglypuff being listed as being female.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

So, should I change Clefable back to male pronouns?

Edited by FirstAidRules on Jan 27th 2024 at 3:13:37 AM

Hi!

Should any of the Pokemon even use pronouns? The genders are not visible in the game itself, so unless the Pokemon is a One-Gender Race or has a gender difference, what their genders are are unknown. We have a thread for character pronouns and identity, and Pokemon topic has appeared more than once in there.

Edited by TPPR10 on Jan 27th 2024 at 1:02:51 PM

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Well, several Pokémon in the game are visibly male (Gyarados who has blue whiskers) or female (Dodrio who has a brown neck). Plus the Trivia page says this:

• Dummied Out: A prominent dataminer has announced that there is a certain file/part of the file that dictates a Pokemon's gender. Upon further reading, it is confirmed that the only female Pokemon are the Blissey line and the Tsareena line. Everyone else, including the Gardevoir line, the Ninetales line, the Wigglytuff line, and the Sylveon line are confirmed male.
  • Later datamines confirmed that the dev teams later changed the models of Gardevoir and Wigglytuff so they are now female as well, even if there's no notable Tertiary Sexual Characteristics. The other feminine-looking Pokemon, including Sylveon, are still male however.

Hi!

There was a talk about cleanup in Anime.Pokemon The Series in both Character Page Cleanup and Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages, so I just summon this thread. Like the video games, the animes need a serious cleanup because of how bloated the index is and how carelessly the splits are done.

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For example, here was how the subpages were for the recent movies.

• Characters.Pokemon I Choose You (19,601 characters)
  • Characters.Pokemon I Choose You Ash Ketchum (19,027 characters)

Someone split a page for Ash even though both pages are very short. Administrivia.Character Specific Pages states CSP's first condition is when the original page is close to 250,000 characters, so I just removed it quickly.

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Next, Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series.

• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series Lead Characters: 64k
• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series Pokemon: 41k
• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series Antagonists: 45k
• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series Supporting Cast: 29k

There was a short discussion about why it's done this way, claiming "we can reasonably be sure that the pages will fill up very quickly". That was in April 2023. One year later, the pages are still nowhere the near the recommended 250k limit, only clearing around 170k altogether. There's no reason to justify this split and all pages should be merged back to Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series. Anyone should wait until the page actually becomes long.

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Frankly, Characters.Pokemon The Series in general is poorly done and something should be done with it.

With the Horizons cast, I suggest moving Dot's folder just under Liko and Roy and just flat out admit that she's Nidothing because by this point, it's Late-Arrival Spoiler since Nidothing being Dot is revealed very earlier and the Pokémon franchise decided to spoil it on Pokémon Day.

As for the main anime, we need to divide the supporting cast into proper categories: Ash's friends and everyone else.

Many characters with character specific pages could merge back to the supporting cast, but the supporting cast is bloated with other recurring cast that are not as important. Ash's circle of friends are distinctly more important than say, the regional professor and some recurring allies. After all, they appear more frequently even in guest appearances.

Edited by Shadao on Apr 7th 2024 at 8:07:21 AM

Agreed that such early spoiler should be left unmarked now, with only some warning above to notify that.

The main anime index is so huge and fragmented, we'll first have to track each page's character number so that we can figure out how to split them again. The current minimum requirement for Administrivia.Character Specific Pages is that they're not considered until the original page is near 250,000 characters (there are other strict requirements in the adminstrivia). A lot of current singular character pages in Pokemon are nowhere near that (around 50k~70k), so the recurring character, as you mentioned, can be merged like Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Companions Part 1, Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Companions Part 2, etc.

But first, we need to make a list of character numbers in each page (like what I did here) so that we can properly discuss how to make the pages.

Here's the current pages and their size. They include the index, which is about 3,000 characters.

Here's what I suggest.

• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ash Ketchum (265,424 characters): Keep. His page is huge and almost near the number TV Tropes would display warning.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Pikachu (63,671 characters): Keep. Pikachu is way smaller than Ash, but as the most recurring character, there's no other way to do it. The page can't be merged with Ash (who is too long) and Team Rocket (who is in a completely different category as a villain).
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Team Rocket Trio (259,365 characters): Keep. Like Ash, it's huge enough to stay as it is.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Team Rocket Organization: Merge it with Trio's Pokemon. ~145k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Friends Part One: Misty+Brock+Tracey. ~176k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Friends Part Two: May+Dawn. ~141k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Friends Part Three: Iris+Serena. ~120k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Friends Part Four: Lillie+Alola classmates. ~131k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Friends Part Five: Goh+Chloe. ~122k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Pokemon Part One: OS+RS+DP. ~213k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Pokemon Part Two: BW+XY. ~120k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ashs Pokemon Part Three: SM+J. ~137k
• Characters.Pokemon The Original Series: Supporting Cast+Gym Leaders. ~203k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Original Series One Shot Characters (77,287 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ruby And Sapphire: Cast+Gym+Frontier+Villains. Includes Steven. ~108k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Diamond And Pearl: Cast+Gym+Villains. ~175k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Paul (123,836 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Black And White: Cast+Rivals+Gym+Villains. ~170k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series XY: Cast+Rivals+Gym+Specials (minus Steven)+Villains. ~245k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Sun And Moon: Cast+Kahuna+Guardians+Aether+Villains. ~179k
• Characters.Pokemon Journeys The Series: Cast+Galar+One Shots. ~134k
• Characters.Pokemon Movies (197,122 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series: Merge everything. ~173k

Hey, I'd like to help out with this, so a few things I wanted to point out:

• Your proposal for Ash's friends doesn't include Max, Cilan, Clemont, or Bonnie.
• The AU movies should likely be merged into a single page as well.
• I'm feeling the OS one-shot characters should be cut altogether. There's dozens of blank folders on that page and the few of them that people actually care about (Damian, Meowzie, a couple others) could just be merged into the supporting cast page.

That said the idea of splitting Ash's friends and Pokemon into different parts seems like it would be a bit clunky aesthetically. My proposal to keep it cleaner would be this: merge the companions, Ashmons, and Rocketmons into a "main cast" page for each series. I can work on the details/numbers later, but that way you can keep the main characters separate from the supporting cast and still merge as many pages as possible.

Edited by BlastVision on Apr 9th 2024 at 2:29:52 PM

• Yeah, I forgot considering Max, Cilan, etc. in this.
• One-shots in The Original Series are definitely lacking and many of them can be cut with only a few merging to the supporting cast. However, rather than just deleting them all, I think a lot of them can be put into Recap pages in episodes they appear.
• I left the AU movies alone because 1) each page (Pokémon: I Choose You!, Pokémon: The Power of Us, Pokémon: Secrets of the Jungle) shares the namespace with its movie so the subpage rules don't apply and 2) each movie has mutually exclusive cast with only Ash and Team Rocket reappearing. This might change when if they make more movies, but I only want to consider what we have right now and there're only 3 movies, so I think it's okay as is.
• Creating "Main Cast" page for each series sounds like a better idea than my suggestion.

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New suggestion. My splits are trying to keep the pages under 250k as many as possible; it's the recommended limit before splitting page because it's when TV Tropes starts to slow down.

• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ash Ketchum (265,424 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Pikachu (63,671 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Team Rocket Trio (259,365 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Team Rocket Organization (66,617 characters): Keep. Like Pikachu, a lot of characters are recurring characters across the series and there's no other proper page to merge it into.
• Characters.Pokemon The Original Series: Supporting Cast+Gym Leaders+One-shots merge. Estimated ~220k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Original Series Main Cast: Misty+Brock+Tracey+Rocketmon. ~192k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Original Series Ashs Pokemon (119,896 characters): Keep. This is still too huge to merge.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Ruby And Sapphire: Cast+Gym+Frontier+Villains. Includes Steven. ~91k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Ruby And Sapphire Main Cast: May+Max+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon. ~155k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Diamond And Pearl: Cast+Gym+Villains. ~175k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Diamond And Pearl Main Cast: Dawn+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon. ~130k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Paul (123,836 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Black And White: Cast+Rivals+Gym+Villains. ~170k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Black And White Main Cast: Iris+Cilan+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon. ~136k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series XY: Cast+Rivals+Gym+Specials (minus Steven)+Villains. ~184k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series XY Main Cast: Serena+Clemont+Bonnie+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon. ~209k
• Characters.Pokemon The Series Sun And Moon: Cast+Kahuna+Guardians+Aether+Villains. ~179k
  • Characters.Pokemon The Series Sun And Moon Main Cast: Lillie+Alola classmates+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon. ~218k
• Characters.Pokemon Journeys The Series: Cast+Galar+One Shots. ~134k
  • Characters.Pokemon Journeys The Series Main Cast: Goh+Chloe+Ash's Pokemon+Rocketmon: 202k
• Characters.Pokemon Movies (197,122 characters): Keep.
• Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series: Merge everything. ~173k
• Characters.Pokemon I Choose You: Keep for now
• Characters.Pokemon The Power Of Us: Keep for now
• Characters.Pokemon Secrets Of The Jungle: Keep for now

The calculation might be a bit off, but I think it's nothing too major to change anything.

Also, why are Wikstrom and Drasna currently in XY page? I thought their official appearance is in Journeys.

Wikstrom cameos at the beginning of Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction.

Hi!

Yeah, that looks solid. Sounds good on the movies and one-shot characters too.

I was actually wondering the same thing about Wikstrom and Drasna myself. I'm pretty sure I actually moved Drasna to the Journeys page at one point, but it got moved back, so I just left it there. Wikstrom technically does appear in the Diancie movie, but he doesn't even speak and Journeys is where he gets to be an actual character, so I support moving them both.

One more thing that just occurred to me is that Pikachu could also be merged with Ash's OS Pokemon, which based on those calcs would bring the page up to about ~179k. That said, another option would be to keep Brock and Misty's pages split, and instead have Pikachu+Ashmons+Rocketmons+Tracey as the main cast page, which would be about ~209k. At that point it comes down to whether you find Ash's Pokemon more important or his companions.

If Wikstrom and Drasna's first speaking role is in Journeys, I agree they should be in Journeys because the pages concern anime, not video games.

I feel Pikachu is better as a separate page because he prominently stars in every single series in the main anime, so putting him in only The Original Series feels counterintuitive. I also do not want to break "Main Cast" page just for Pikachu as it'll hurt the consistency. Administrivia.Character Specific Pages states its minimum is 40k characters, so while Pikachu's page is relatively small, it's not that small and doesn't violate the rules.

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I made a new index based on the splits.

Pokémon anime characters index
Series-wide: Ash Ketchum | Pikachu | Team Rocket Trio | Team Rocket Organization
The Original Series (Main Cast, Ash's Pokémon) | Ruby and Sapphire (Main Cast) | Diamond and Pearl (Main Cast, Paul) | Black & White (Main Cast) | XY (Main Cast) | Sun & Moon (Main Cast) | Journeys (Main Cast)
Others: Movie characters

The AU movies will have a separate index like this.

I Choose You! | The Power of Us | Secrets of the Jungle

Horizons page will get rid of its subpages so for now it'll be like... Main Character Index > Pokémon Horizons: The Series

In addition to this, I suggest adding a warning on every Pokemon anime character page. Seems like casual page splits are very, very common in Pokemon and I wanna put an end to that. I'm suggesting putting something like this on top:

%%
%%
%%
%%
%% Do NOT create a character subpage without discussion.
%% Consult one of these threads first:
%% (Projects: Long Term/Perpetual - Character Page Cleanup)
%% https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15654830560A87455000
%% (Projects: Short Term - Characters.Pokémon Reorganization/Cleanup)
%% https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16445260580A02707800
%%
%%
%%
%%

Thoughts on this?

The reason why half of Kalos Elite Four that debuted in Journeys are in the XY page is the same reason why Agatha is in the Kanto Elite Folder despite her appearing only in AG. It's rather convenient to group the Elite Four under one banner than have them be dispersed across the series. It's also why Wallace is part of the Hoenn Gym Leader page despite him first debuting in DP. But it's not consistence since Steven Stone is part of the Hoenn Elite Four and made his debut there, but he only appeared once in AG as a guest character while receiving most of his well-known characterization in the XY series. Drake had a much bigger and more prominent debut in AG, yet his character folder is in Journeys.

The pages that need the most overhaul is Journeys and Original Series' one shot characters because by Arceus, there's too many empty character folders and they are completely disorganized.

Honestly I didn't even realize Drake had a folder, lmao. His should definitely be moved to AG's page at least. Wallace should be in DP's page too since that's by far his most relevant series for the anime.

As for the others, I'm leaning more toward "debut series/first speaking role". Lisia is on the Journeys folder too because she debuted there despite being a Gen VI character, and I think she should stay there.

But yeah, those pages are a mess. Almost everything from the OS one-shot characters could just be cut and added to the recap pages for their respective episodes. I'm pretty sure the only ones worth keeping are Damian, Meowzie, James's parents, and maybe Anthony (the guy who took Ash's Primeape).

Ah yeah, Giselle too. And possibly Samurai and AJ.

Edited by BlastVision on Apr 10th 2024 at 12:50:26 PM

I’d add Giselle to that list of keepers, too.

Edited by Lymantria on Apr 10th 2024 at 12:41:21 PM

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!

Melanie from Bulbasaur and the Hidden Garden should be a keeper as well since she was Bulbasaur's caretaker and was notable enough to have an appearance in this official Mato-drawn anime book spin off◊ as well as in Pokémon Yellow.

The first thing we need to do is eliminate all folders that no tropes in them. Then sort out the ones who do have tropes and see if people can guess who they are.

So discussion so far:

To-do

• The current character page of the main anime is very bloated, so the pages will be re-organized like the post here. The new index is here.
  • Some characters are currently listed in a way earlier or later than the generation they're in (e.g. Steven, Wallace, Wikstrom, Drasna, Agatha, Drake). The current suggestion is to put them in a series with "debut series/first speaking role".
  • One-shot character pages for The Original Series and Journeys are a mess. Folders without tropes should be removed and unimportant characters should be moved to recap pages of their episodes, but the criteria of who's important are not decided yet. The keeper candidates of the Original Series include Damian, Meowzie, James's parents, Anthony, Giselle, Samurai, AJ, and Melanie. The extras in Journeys are not checked upon yet.
• The 3 AU movies will stay as they are, but they would get a separate index like here.
• All subpages in Characters.Pokemon Horizons The Series will be merged because they're still short (~170k altogether). They also get a separate index like here.
  • Late-Arrival Spoiler like Dot will become unmarked spoilers because they're early reveals.
• (My suggestion) Every Pokemon anime character page should be tagged with "Do not create a subpage without discussion" warning like this, so that we don't have to repeat the same cleanup again.

Did I miss anything here?

Edited by SpaceKABOOM on Apr 11th 2024 at 3:26:32 AM

My general rule of thumb of which one-shot characters should be on the list is whether they are referenced in other media or adaptations of the Pokémon anime, which signifies them as Breakout Characters of short, or they happened to be essential to know where certain Pokémon of Ash's went. I also believe in merging characters folders into one if they happened to be family like Tommy and his parents.

The Electric Tale of Pikachu is a good indication of one shot characters that stood the test of time. The following one shot characters found in the manga are:

• Samurai
• AJ
• Joe (part of Giselle's story)
• Giselle
• Melanie (Bulbasaur caretaker)
• Damian (Charmander abandoner)
• Bill (aka the Bill the PC guy)
• Lara Laramie (Pokémon Race)
• Dario (Hate Sink Rival of Pokémon Race)
• Tommy and family
• Mikey and the Eevee Brothers
• Oswald (Clefairy Alien Conspiracy Theorist who was somehow renamed into Orville)
• Potter
• Florinda Showers
• Jeanette Fisher (The girl with the powerful Bellsprout in Indigo League that Ash faced)
• Ruby (The girl who had to deal with Snorlax that Ash caught)
• Mahri (Gym Leader Rudy's sister)

Now some are less memorable than others, but I find you can squeeze in adaptational differences tropes for these characters at the very least.

As for other one shot characters that can stay that are not in the manga:

• Moe (He's kinda related to Brutella and Nastina)
• Brutella and Nastina (since Brutella actually has two episodes)
• Anthony and Rebecca for Primeape (should be combined into one folder)
• Kaiser is important for giving Ash all those Safari Balls (and having a gun)
• Chopper and Tyra are part of the biker gang that know Jessie and James (should also be combined into one folder)
• Mandi (Responsible for Krabby evolving into Kingler and suffering a humiliating defeat)
• Lily (The magician that turned Ash into a Pikachu)

Johto one-shot characters are honestly forgettable aside from Lily. I suggest nuking all of them except Lily.

Edited by Shadao on Apr 11th 2024 at 8:05:28 AM

Ehhh that list feels a bit too generous for my tastes. I'd rather stick to the one-offs that have a more tangible impact on the series, e.g. Damian shaped Charmander's backstory and has gotten referenced through flashbacks in later series. If anything the rest of them could be added to the page for EToP.