Designated Hero/Villain cleanup and maintenance

I think anyone but Lady Christina de Souza should be cut but maybe other people should chime in first.

Edit: Going to make the changes now.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Jan 8th 2024 at 3:02:41 AM

New edit on Wish (2023) page, this time by a new troper who doesn't appear to have consulted anyone before adding their edit, along with an Unintentionally Unsympathetic edit and Strawman Has a Point add-ons, which I have brought up elsewhere;

• Designated Hero: Asha:
  • According to Asha herself in the intro, Magnifico's main promise is to protect their wishes, and only maybe grant them, this basically destroys her later vilification of him keeping ungranted wishes, as he's still protecting and thus still keeping his promise
  • The film uses Magnifico snapping at Asha to paint him as the definitive bad guy, but ignores that this was in response to Asha basically throwing a tantrum
  • Asha justifies stealing the wishes from Magnifico by saying they're not actually his, but this blatantly ignores that each and every one was given to him willingly for protection, and the one she takes in particular belongs to Sabino, who had just told her he was fine with not knowing what it was and with letting Magnifico keep it
  • Queen Amaya turns on her husband in part because he broke his promise her not to dabble in Dark Magic, but holds no resentment to Asha for lying to her about having permission to take back her family's wishes, or for the role her actions played in getting Magnifico to use Dark Magic in the first place
  • Asha's main problem with Magnifico is that he's the sole wish granter, and is the one to choose which ones do and do not come true, she later accepts the position of Fairy Godmother, putting her in the exact same role

Thoughts?

Yeah. That one is pure Ron the Death Eater. Like some of them are like just flat out not about her being designated.

Actually I just noticed something these were originally on Characters.Wish 2023 under Protagonist-Centered Morality which was added by by the same troper before being removed.

Yes, troper 'Chytus' advised I move it to Designated Hero, as he believed that Protagonist-Centered Morality only applied if someone got hurt, not mere a Double Standard for the Protagonist and Antagonist

If I'm wrong on any of my point, I'd love to discuss

I don't think it counts. It fits more under Ron the Death Eater in my opinion.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 21st 2024 at 4:13:57 AM

May I ask how so? What points am I wrong on?

The points aren't so much wrong as they are under the wrong trope. You see when I read those entries I don't get "someone who is meant to be a hero but does questionable things that make fans question that" and more "fans like to protray her actions as morally wrong when in the narrative they aren't". For example the fairy godmother thing has nothing to do with her doing anything heroic or something that the narrative acts is heroic. It's a valid read but just under the wrong trope. At least to me but maybe others will disagree.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 21st 2024 at 6:38:32 AM

Okay, I view it as the narrative condemning Magnifico as wrong for something, but presenting Asha as right for doing the same sort of thing or something similar to it, hence why it was initially under Protagonist-Centered Morality

That aside, there are many, many, many reviews that go into great detail about how Magnifico does have valid points, and isn't really a villain for most of the film, and Asha is something of an Entitled Brat

I mean that doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with her being a hero or not. It again fits better under Ron the Death Eater in my opinion. It is actively playing her as worse then she is which is more that then this.

I feel like his wife would be a better example of this the Asha as those reactions are based more on actions.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 21st 2024 at 7:20:19 AM

Asha's case is more of a Ron the Death Eater scenario. Cut her entry.

Would you say it's unfactual, or missing context? How exactly is it making her out to be worse than she is?

Cause if it's not doing any of that, I might just re-add it under Protagonist-Centered Morality

Edited by GreatStormDragon on Feb 21st 2024 at 5:30:26 AM

I would not due that either. At least without more discussion because that would be an Edit War.

I'll add it to Wish's discussion page, and re-add it only if it holds up there, sound good?

Sounds good.

Anime And Manga:

• Digimon Frontier: Ophanimon is the Big Good, but she's so incompetent that she becomes this. Her solution to the Cherubimon and Lucemon problem boils down to sending strange SNS messages to random children and expecting them to come while putting the lives of those who don't reach the Spirits in time at risk, sends an Angemon to defend those who get stranded and never boots them out by force, and leaves her fractal key right inside her castle so the Royal Knights can freely pillage it. You'd expect her to be more prepared when the enemy threatens to wipe out the entire Digital World, but she might as well as let the Royal Knights steamroll and that wouldn't make much of a difference.

I dont being utterly incompetent makes her a Designated Hero. I think this troper was just itching to bash her and just picked a random trope.

Indeed I would cut her

Designated Villain example from Watch_Dogs 2:

• Blume Corporation is the primary target of the game despite the fact it's crimes are limited to mass data-mining (which is how at least three tech giants and numerous software companies made money), insider trading (which is the least of white collar crimes to most people), and election fraud. It may be hard to get too worked up about this versus the previous game's enemies of human traffickers. Subverted, to an extent when it's revealed Blume was behind the 2007 financial crisis and is working with Tidis to make spider-tanks against civilians).
  • Dusan is another figure who is of questionable evil given the majority of what he's doing to oppose DedSec is actually his job as CTO. He's also the guy defending the law since DedSec breaks it routinely. He even gets a few Pet the Dog moments like getting the FBI to back off of the group as well as people who want their heads. Also punching and suing Steven Bader.

I feel this is rather questionable as someone who has played through the game. Dusǎn should quite probably be removed as this example is inaccurate (and clashes with his depiction as a doucebag Tech Bro seen under Love to Hate). His objective is not to stop DedSec, but to make money, which he does by manipulating DedSec into targeting who he wants, and thus playing up potential customers' fear of hackers so they'll invest in CtOS 2.0 — something that's most definitely illegal, alongside his working with criminal Hacker Collective Prime_Eight to take out DedSec after his plan is fulfilled. I don't think his Affably Evil personality and Pet the Dog moments discount his other actions enough to make him a Designated Villain.

Regarding the Blume corporation itself, while criticism of it being a less menacing villain than the crime groups of the original Watch_Dogs is valid, insider trading and election fraud are generally considered pretty bad, but this example is more contestable.

Edited by Azorius24 on Mar 28th 2024 at 8:19:37 AM

The Game (2005) has a stealth real life example

• Designated Hero: Neil attempts to cast himself as the Only Sane Man in a community filled with lotharios, but he comes off as just as bad (if not worse) and his attempts to justify or explain his own behavior come off as disingenuous at best. Among other instances in the book, he knowingly gets involved in affairs with married or committed women, steals women from their boyfriends in the middle of clubs, mocks other men for their inability to score, uses every advantage he can (up to and including fake personas) to get what he wants, and generally acts like a smarmy, self-entitled man throughout the original book and its companion.