The problem is that the Dog tropes are a series of villain/antagonist tropes, which is probably why The Dog Bites Back is focussed on villains or antagonist-type characters. The tropes that are about heroes either only go as far as anti-heroes or are about heroes becoming villains or villains transitioning away from being villains.
The fact that this trope was set up to be part of the Dog series suggests that heroes are intentionally excluded from it.
Also, if a non-villain is in the 'underling' ('underdog'?) role required to be the 'dog' that bites back, I really don't think they're going to classify as a 'hero'. They might be the protagonist of the story, but heroes and protagonists aren't the same thing, which why tropes such as Villain Protagonist exist.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 31st 2021 at 12:00:01 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Musician/Composer
I did bring up the concern about the description on the Trope Description Improvement Drive
. Maybe we can try trimming down that trope description on Main.The Dog Bites Back to make it easier for other tropers and unfamiliar readers?
Edited by gjjones on Jan 31st 2021 at 7:27:29 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Well, I'd say the trope is the first four paragraphs (ending with the line 'And he's got a knife.' which may or may not be a necessary line but is certainly dramatic). Every thing else seems to be analysis and can be turned into an analysis page.
I'd probably end the page with 'A sub-trope of Karmic Death, where villains are killed in a way that allows the heroes to keep their hands clean.' since the Karmic Death trope does clearly state that The Dog Bites Back is one of its sub-tropes. The page discription would therefore look like this:
When the villain is dispatched by an abused member of 'his' side when an opportunity for revenge presents itself.
It's all gone to hell. The base is collapsing about your ears, your Evil Plan is unraveling, the heroes are lining up for the Humiliation Conga—what more could go wrong?
Well, remember that mook you humiliated in front of his friends? Or that victim you blackmailed, chained up or enchanted? Or that member of your crew you abandoned to the cops when they came knocking? Whoever it is, you hurt him, and he's been waiting for just the right moment to pay you back.
A sub-trope of Karmic Death, where a villain's own villainy gets them killed thus sparing the heroes from having to do it.
I would also take the opportunity to improve Laconic.The Dog Bites Back as well. However, there is a Laconic clean-up thread, so it could be dealt with there.
I would also suggest a visit to the Trope Relationships clean-up thread to clarify the true relationship between The Dog Bites Back and Hoist by His Own Petard. The Dog Bites Back claims it's a subtrope of HBHOP while HBHOP seems to treat The Dog Bites Back as a parallel trope, not a subtrope, which suggests they should be sister tropes rather than parent/child.
Anyway, these would be my suggestions for how to handle the trope description. I don't know if anyone else has any other ideas.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 31st 2021 at 12:47:53 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
In the case of the other 'dog' tropes eg Kick the Dog, the 'dog' is not necessarily a fellow villain/underling. It's just about any sympathetic character/thing the villain treats a certain way. So I can see that affecting how The Dog Bites Back is used.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, looking at the Tropey the Wonder Dog index, it would seem that the "Dog" is usually not villainous. They typically act more as a Plot Device to reveal something about the person interacting with them (whether their cruelty, kindness, or something else), so they're more often than not just random civilians not affiliated to the villains/heroes.
In fact the description of The Dog Bites Back in that index says, "Someone the villain was mean to decides that they've had enough and is mean back to the villain or at least helps defeat them."
Personally, I don't think this trope needs to be limited to villainous henchmen getting back at their Bad Boss, especially since non-villainous examples do exist, and I don't think it's significantly distinct enough from the villain-specific examples to qualify as its own trope.
Edited by Adept on Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:30:44 PM
Musician/Composer
Should we bring this up on the Trope Description Improvement Drive thread?
Edited by gjjones on Feb 6th 2021 at 3:43:14 PM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Musician/Composer
While I brought it up on ATT for what the next step would be, I’ll go ahead and bring it up on the TDID, if no one objects.
Edited by gjjones on Feb 16th 2021 at 4:39:41 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Coming from this ATT
and as per this suggestion on the Is this an example? thread
, I would like to discuss a concern about The Dog Bites Back. As we know, this trope is for when a character gets back at their superior(s) for all the dog-kicking they've endured (such as Shenzi and the hyenas against Scar in The Lion King).
While the description is very underling-centric per Synchronicity and overly long (it may need to be trimmed) as per GastonRabbit, azul120 pointed out to me that the trope doesn't have to be a strictly underling example as per this edit summary
(heroes can often do that as well if they're abused enough). That said, I think we may need to look into this trope.
Any thoughts?
Edited by gjjones on Jan 31st 2021 at 7:24:24 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.