Asshole Victim Cleanup

Personally, I think that this trope is more for the extreme end of the 'victim' part. Karmic Death defines the death itself, while this trope would be best to explain WHY the victim had it coming. Laser-Guided Karma can go both ways, while this trope is all about those who deserve to be victims.

Asshole Victim is actually just the supertrope to everything now.

Asshole Victim can still explain why the character had X coming, actually.

I agree, since it would explain the context of why they deserved their fate.

South Park S16 E2 "Cash For Gold"

• Asshole Victim: Dean, the shopping network host, gets a very bitter end: while Stan's threatening advice didn't work before when he told him to go kill himself, at the end of the episode three different elderly people phoned him, saying that Stan was right and that he should kill himself and they even go as so far to egg him on. This results in him saying that this incident is "the straw that broke the camel's back". He ends up going through with it after being told to "put the barrel to (his) temple and pull the trigger". Seeing how he preyed on vulnerable, Alzheimer's-afflicted old people for their money for a long time, nobody is gonna mourn for him.

Didn't he cause his own death because he couldn't handle annonomous people telling him to KYS? This seems more like a Karmic Death at least.

A bad actor like him would have to be pretty fragile to be able to end himself while conning the elderly at a high volume.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Nov 26th 2022 at 12:37:38 PM

See, I'm not sure where Suicide by Cop, assisted suicide or any former of suicide falls when it comes to this trope, I figure Karma doesn't MAKE you kill yourself so if someone horrible kills themselves I would assume Asshole Victim would apply in that scenario. Karmic Death is if the character is murderered or potentially SBC, AV can be either general Suicide or SBC. When in doubt, use AV as it's a general supertrope.

If someone gets you to kill yourself for being a bigot, hateful, or any other kind of awful I'd say that's a rare instance where Karmic Death works as you yourself didn't instigate the death.

On the subject of South Park, I think Clyde's mother counts for Karmic Death because she was so mean to Clyde.

Edited by Klavice on Nov 29th 2022 at 1:03:14 AM

I'd think any type of suicide would make the person not a Victim.

What about people getting killed willingly? And did we ever decide on whether or not killers can be AV because if not, we need to fix the Ace Attorney page as it lists Dahlia Hawthorne and Matt Engarde.

Dahlia was executed by law for her crimes. Last time Matt was seen he had a whip course for his crimes. Since the fate has a direct cause, I don't think they should count.

However this contradicts my logic and kinda makes it not even a trope. I'll re-check later what previous TRS said.

I think with Matt, he was killed by De Killer, in prison. There's a character in the fifth main series game that claims to have met him in the clink, but no official word on that, it's merely implied.

As for Dahlia, she technically WAS a victim as her spirit channeled Misty Fey, and was killed by the very person she poisoned.

Edited by Klavice on Nov 29th 2022 at 5:08:44 AM

This is from Knives Out. I removed the spoilers for ease of assessment:

• Asshole Victim: Many, or none, depending on your views. In order:
  • spoiler:Harlan behaves like a jerk to his whole family on his birthday (firing Walt seems particularly low) and then dies. He may be doing the "Cruel to Be Kind" thing, or he's just a prick]].
  • spoiler:Walt worked for his Dad his whole adult life, and is left shocked and bereft twice when he's fired and cut out of the will. He's also the first to threaten Marta under a thin veneer of friendliness and familiarity]].
  • spoiler:All of the family are cut out of the will and behave like roaring jackals to try and get what they see as their share back]].
  • spoiler:Joni and Meg are supposed to be the most likable of the family, but the first is robbing her father-in-law and the second turns on her friend (Marta) at the first opportunity. Meg does seem to feel guilty immediately; but they're both still assholes who get left with nothing anyway.]]
  • spoiler:Linda is one of the quickest to rage over whatever situation the family is in, but she's on good terms with her Dad. He disinherits her anyway; her son is (correctly) arrested for murder and she finds out her husband is cheating on her.]]

I don't know if any qualify. The opening line seems to play these as arguable, which tropes are not. And the "victims" I don't think meet the standard. Harlan was a jerk but that doesn't meet the repugnant standard.

You didn't do the open brackets on those spoilers. We can all see through them.

"removed the spoilers for ease of assessment"

Harland isn't this, he's portrayed as sympathetic and well meaning in his actions and his death is shown as a tragedy. Not sure on the rest of the family though, Joni getting cut off I don't think counts since it isn't independent of her crimes, I'm not sure Linda is bad enough to count as an asshole since she's generally nicer than the rest (and doesn't have any glaringly awful actions unlike many of them), Walt and Meg don't do anything bad until after being cut off so I'm not sure there.

I mean Harland did drop the news on Joni and Walt on the same night, I'm not really sure there's much opportunity for a better time and place after that.

Edited by papyru30 on Dec 11th 2022 at 4:09:52 AM

Are they even really victims? They did get cut out of the will, but we can assume that had Harland not died, he'd have actually explained things to them at a better time and place.

Found this in Kyros's section on Characters.One Piece New World:

• Asshole Victim: Not him, but the people he killed as a teenager. They had previously taken the life of his friend and Kyros murdered them out of vengeance. However, in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of Kyros himself, this doesn't justify taking someone's life. Kyros deeply regrets these murders as an adult and does all he can to redeem himself.

What should we do with this example?

I'm actually leaning on saying it counts because AV can involve the fate(s) in question being horrible. And, from what I can gather, the fate(s) don't have to be "justified"/justified; it just involves the character being unsympathetic due to them being villainous or jerkish, despite something bad happening to them.

Therefore, I feel the third sentence and maybe the fourth one aren't needed. If the latter is kept, however (and I'm leaning on keeping it personally), I'd personally add "However," to the beginning of it to make it sound better. I'd also use the redirect Asshole Victims because that example involves more than one murderee.

In case I need to say this, I do not condone murder; I'm just talking about whether some fictional deaths qualify for a trope that doesn't allow real life examples.

I found some pretty egregious misuse of Asshole Victim:

Recap.Futurama M 1 Benders Big Score

• Asshole Victim: All three of the nudist alien scammers get killed in the end. Given what obnoxious and cruel jerkoffs they were, they really deserved their fates.

Aren't they literally the villains in the movie? The Planet Express crew had to blow them up in order to get back their planet. I'd say their deaths are Karmic Deaths, since for all their scamming, Bender scammed them out of the bomb Professor Farnsworth had handcuffed to himself with the old switcharoo, which they subsequently used to blow them up.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 24th 2022 at 6:18:47 AM

AV can actually apply to evil-doers actually, if that's what you're getting at. EDIT: Also, Karmic Death doesn't apply if the character is killed by a goodie.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Dec 24th 2022 at 6:19:05 AM

But when were the nudist aliens ever victims?

Also, Yes it can apply. As long as it's a result of the villain's actions that got them killed.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 24th 2022 at 6:20:46 AM

In general, I think the character(s) dying is enough for them to count for the "victim(s)" part. EDIT: And the main page for Karmic Death flatly states the characters' deaths aren't due to the goodies killing them.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Dec 24th 2022 at 6:21:48 AM

By that logic, every person who has ever done a bad thing will count once they die.

I don't think you're understanding my point. If the villain's death is the result of what they did to the good guys, then it can count.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 24th 2022 at 6:22:36 AM

Karmic Death states it involves the character's death being 100% their own fault when the Planet Express Crew used their own bomb to kill them. As for the first part, not only did I never say that (in case I need to make that clear), I'm just rolling with the fact that Asshole Victim states it can involve the character being a jerk or a villain.

And it was their own fault they were killed. You must have very different definitions on what constitutions a villain causing their own death.

Also with my first point, I was just pointing out with how loose you termed it, almost every bad person would count eventually.

It has to be completely, and the Planet Express Crew technically killed them via using their bomb. As for me using it loosely, how loose Asshole Victim is seems to be part of why it was made a Super-Trope.