BoJack Horseman Clean-up -- Revision and Trope Misuse

Also WhamEpisode.Bojack Horseman desperately needs some looking-over. It goes against the nature of a Wham Episode for nearly every episode of a season to be one.

I'm not sure about the Designated Hero entries... Calling Todd and Bojack heroes in this kind of show is kind of a stretch, considering that the cast kind of being jerks is kind of the point.

Also, I'm finally watching the show, aprtly so I can help out more when I finish the show, but also because I decided to get over my Hype Aversion for the show after the show ended and the hype died down.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:17:53 AM

Oh thank goodness this effort isn't dead! The page is still pretty bloated and outdated.

Todd may be able to count as DH since he's usually portrayed as the most good natured person on the show, albeit pretty lazy and ditzy at times. I just don't know if most people find him unlikable enough. I think someone on the YMMV page must have had it out for Todd recently.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:25:25 AM

I saw this gushy example that I since toned down from PrecisionFStrike.Western Animation

• BoJack Horseman makes brilliant use of this trope. Despite being a Netflix show that can use the word as often as they like, it's deliberately used exactly once per season, and only for scenes in which the title character's self-destructive lifestyle had done irreparable damage to a relationship. The result is a walloping dramatic effect.

Honestly, seeing examples like these gushing about the show for years justified my Hype Aversion for the show.

Cut out the last sentence and maybr change the first sentence and it's probably fine. Though it needs to be updated since the F bomb was used in other contexts later in the show besides a permanent relationship severed with Bojack (as the entries on the work page explain).

I already changed it. I did say that I toned down the gushing.

I’ll probably find out how the word “fuck” is used once I get to those later seasons.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 15th 2020 at 9:28:50 AM

The Reality Ensues entries might need a good looking at. Especially considering this show pretty much set itself upon realistic outcomes.

Reality Ensues is a troublesome one; it's currently in TRS for rampant shoehorning and generally being underdefined. That being the case, it can be hard to tell what a "good" example looks like.

Right now the TRS thread seems to have provisionally accepted the following criteria. Good examples:

• Are treated as subversions/surprises/etc by the narrative
• Have context beyond "this is kinda realistic"
• Follow real-life logic rather than story logic (where this is where some of the subjectivity comes in, all you really need to do is consider the actual context and logic of the story and what might happen if these things were applied to real life)
• Are still moments and not just "man, this character sure did face consequences for their actions"

Based on those criteria, I don't think any of the entries on RealityEnsues.Bojack Horseman qualify as written.

I'm crossposting a link to this thread in the Reality Ensues TRS thread just in case anyone more familiar with that particular cleanup effort has a different perspective.

I think there may be a place for Reality Ensues in Bojack since there are certain moments that are played as "Bojack tries to invoke a trope from his sitcom, but it flops because of realism." Some examples I think could fit those are the infamous apology scene with Herb (does it fit is if it's played for drama?) and his attempt to win over the kids at Penny's prom with a new dance, instead getting booed for changing their music.

As far as Designated Hero goes, I'm skeptical. Every major character on the show is flawed by design; some more and some less so, sure, but nobody is supposed to be unambiguously heroic.

From the DH trope description: "From the praise Designated Heroes receive from other characters, the narrative, and perhaps Word of God, it is plain that the audience is expected to like and root for them."

I can't think of any BH character that sentence 100% applies to. The closest would probably be Diane, but even then, the show goes out of its way to show how her depression can be self-destructive and how she sometimes uses "causes" as an excuse to avoid focusing on her own problems and ignore the needs of those around her. I don't think "the narrative" ever really comes down on a particular side of conflicts like her leaking the warts-and-all version of Bojack's biography against his wishes, and certainly none of the other characters ever present it as a "heroic" thing for her to do.

Those moments do have potential, I think. The troublesome part is the "it's treated as a surprise / subversion by the narrative" bit. Since Bojack is all about contrasting "reality" with sitcom / television cliches, past a certain point it doesn't come as a surprise to the audience even if it does to the character. The humor doesn't come from a place of, "we expected it to go like THIS but it went like THAT," it's, "the character expected it to go like THIS even though we the audience know full well life, and by extension this show, doesn't work that way."

The Herb example could work, since that happened in the first season when it was legitimately a surprise to the audience as well as the character. Everything about the episode— Herb's initial hostility, Diane finding a common ground between the two of them and reminding them how much they liked riffing with each other, Herb slowly warming up over the course of the meal— was setting the audience up for Bojack to apologize and Herb to accept it. When Herb coldly says, "No, I'm not going to give you closure. You don't get that. You have to live with the shitty thing, you did for the rest of your life. You have to know that it's never ever going to be okay," it comes as a real gut punch to the audience.

Narrative convention: a heartfelt apology can heal even the worst rift between friends.

Reality Ensues: Except that sometimes it can't. Sometimes a relationship is broken so badly that it can never be repaired.

By the time Bojack tries to bust out the Bojack Dance at the prom toward the end of the second season, though, any viewer who expected a scene like the end of A Goofy Movie where the kids shower him with praise for his weird impromptu dance number hasn't been paying very much attention to the show thus far.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 16th 2020 at 2:23:46 AM

Apologies for the multi-post, but there's a lot to weigh in on here.

From the Wham Episode trope description:

The point in a series where the story takes a sudden dramatic turn. Things will never be quite the same again.

It then goes on to list three criteria. An example must:

• Shake up the status quo
• Show that the change is not easily undone
• Be felt by the characters within the series

There are only two episodes that I think might be legit examples:

"The Telescope," which cements the show's shift from a Family-Guy-esque nominally transgressive but ultimately irreverent comedy to a pitch-black dramedy.

"That's Too Much, Man," which brings us the death of Sarah Lynn, quite possibly Bojack's lowest point and the thing that motivates absolutely everything that comes after it.

One could make an argument for "Escape from L.A.," and while it certainly does pack the emotional punch of a Wham Episode, I don't believe it actually does much to shake up the status quo. It informs Bojack's character— we now know exactly how shitty he's capable of being— but it's hard to honestly say that "things will never be the same again." He goes back to L.A. and the show goes on.

I reviewed the page at the Wham cleanup a while ago. I'm willing to be more generous than you are, since there's more episodes that change, if not the status quo, the entire tonal direction of the show (though in hindsight some I declared keepers might be able to go).

A big part of Bojack is a lot of these episodes do result in big changes to story arcs and signify some change that can't be undone- severing a tie with an old friend who was once seen as your last resort for a better life, a backstory reveal that recontexualizes everything we know about a character and unearths new potential for the future of their character arc, etc.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 16th 2020 at 5:52:14 AM

Bojack is a serialized story; it doesn't run on Negative Continuity or end each episode with a reversion to a status quo. I think that each episode has consequences in that sense, but it takes more than that to be a Wham Episode.

I gotta say, I'm surprised that the Recap pages are so barren for a show that was extremely popular. I was expecting a boatload of tropes to be waiting there.

I started by adding Easy Evangelism to Recap.Bojack Horseman S 3 E 06 Brrap Brrap Pew Pew. Did I use that trope correctly?

• Easy Evangelism: Diane changes her mind about Sextina’s song and plan, all because she met another women who was getting an abortion who thought the song was funny.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 16th 2020 at 2:24:04 PM

That's pretty iffy, IMO. Finding a song funny isn't a belief system.

Kind of downplays the point of that scene. She changes her mind because the woman explains that the song being funny helps take the edge off the traumatic experience of getting an abortion. It makes sense for Diane to change her mind after that because she thought it would make things worse for women having abortions, but then she realized it could be helpful to some of them. It's not a deep-rooted belief system for her to dislike Sextina's video; she just thought it was tasteless and unfair because Sextina wasn't having an abortion. Plus that episode was kind of Both Sides Have a Point; Diane's perspective wasn't seen as wrong, just not the only perspective that makes sense in this situation.

Really? I was under the impression that Diane was supposed to be in the wrong for condemning the video, especially considering how much it strawmans the other side.

And FYI, Easy Evangelism isn't just about religion, it's about easily changing someone's mind about something.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 16th 2020 at 2:38:24 PM

Sextina is also played up as so ridiculous that she's clearly not supposed to be entirely in the right either. However, even if her intentions are selfish, the episode argues that it did help people in the end. That's just the scene that proves that people can be helped by thinking Sextina is a real pro-abortion advocate, even if Diane knows that it's all a fake publicity stunt. I know Easy Evangelism is flexible, I just think the example is slightly more complex than it's written in your entry.

Another thing I really want to look at are all the Ambiguous Disorder entries. I already made a note of them in another cleanup, but holy shit they're long. And a lot of them use the trope to diagnose characters, which is exactly what you're not supposed to do. Plus I'm really uncomfortable with the logic of assuming some of these one-off characters who only exist to be shitty people are shitty people because of a mental disorder.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 16th 2020 at 1:40:07 PM

I mean, I do get that impression that Sextina was kind meant to be wrong considering she just took a tweet and made a mountain out of a molehill with it, but it kind of felt kind of like an Ass Pull to suddenly make her right with one thing.

I think another part of it is that we only really see two characters total who decide to abort. It just didn't feel representative enough of all the different kinds of opinions surrounding this topic.

Anyways, what about Author's Saving Throw entries on the page? They seem like misuse, considering that it's about changing or retconning disliked plotlines.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 16th 2020 at 2:59:14 PM

I really don't think it's an Ass Pull but we're getting off mission here.

Author's Saving Throw review:

• Season 4 seemed to be a direct response to the criticisms that Season 3 was too depressing by throwing BoJack some bones and spending more time on the other characters' drama. Season 3 was highly praised in spite of- likely because of- its dark tone. There may be something here, though; a common criticism was that Bojack kept repeating the same mistakes without learning or changing, and season 4 was the first to really break that pattern. But I think that was the plan from the beginning- RBW crafted season 4 to be a new direction after Sarah Lynn's death.
• Beatrice's arc in Season 4 was criticized for using her dementia to downplay her history of abuse to Bojack. As a result, Bojack's monologue in the following season's episode "Free Churro" is almost entirely about how he still doesn't see either of his parents as anything but sad failures taking their resentments out on each other and their child, and assumed that her dying words were probably one last swipe at him. Again, I don't know if this was a widely disliked thing, more of a Broken Base considering how praised the Beatrice episodes were as a whole despite people taking issues with the ending of "Time's Arrow." Also, season 4 didn't really downplay her abuse, she was clearly still awful to Bojack, just gave it a new perspective and made it clear that nothing good would come out of yelling at her for it anymore. While "Free Churro" is beloved by fans, I've actually seen a few people criticize the episode for being seemingly inconsistent with season 4's take on Beatrice (personally I disagree), so I don't think this is a saving throw. Just adding more details to finish off a story.
• Some people were uncomfortable with how the women in BoJack's life were often Put on a Bus as soon as their arcs with him were through, their characters seemingly only serving as a motivation for his angst. "A Quick One, While He's Away" focused on Hollyhock, Kelsey, and Gina having stories that don't directly involve BoJack at all, barring a few inexplicit references to him. I added this, because I have seen this criticism a few times. Some people also dislike how everything is centered on on Bojack's pain even though he's left so many scars on others, and I think this episode is meant to address that concern as well. Note that the authors did go into season 5 and beyond with the intent to distance themselves from possibly enabling self-pity in toxic viewers.
• After most of the show completely ignored any question of Todd Chavez’s race, causing many to wonder if Diane wasn’t the only minority character voiced by a white actor, Season 6 finally reveals that he’s fully a non-Latino white and his last name comes from his Mexican stepfather, voiced by Mexican telenovela superstar Jaime Camil. Moreover, those who found Todd to be Unintentionally Unsympathetic due to being a NEET Lazy Bum who crashes on other people's couches can appreciate that in Season 6 he finally gets a steady job running a nanny service for Princess Carolyn's company, gets his own place, and reconnects with his mother, and even acknoweldges where she was coming from when she kicked him out in hopes that he would grow up. There's someone who edited this YMMV page in the past year who really dislikes Todd, I can tell. I haven't seen that many people complain about Todd being unsympathetic, and his season 6 story arc got criticism for being underwhelming, so I'm not sure if it's a saving throw. As for the race thing, I've actually seen some people disappointed that Todd isn't canonically Latino as was previously thought, so I don't think this counts either.
• A few episodes of Season 6 also addressed the complaints that the "message" episodes were either uninformed or attempted to shoehorn in a feminist message when it didn't fit, as "Feel-Good Story" and "The Kidney Stays In The Picture" stick to straightforward discussions of their respective subjects (monopolies and unions) without trying to twist them into discussion of feminism. Similarly, "The New Client" directly calls out women who dismiss other women for not being "strong and independent enough" by their own standards, no doubt in response to criticisms of the show lionizing feminism in general. I do love the episode, but "Feel-Good Story" is incredibly anvilicious and I've seen criticisms that it was even more heavy-handed than some of the previous episodes. Also, "twist them into discussion of feminism" is a weird phrase because all but one of the previous "message episodes" was an issue about women to begin with. "Thoughts and Prayers" is the only "message episode" that was criticized for trying to juggle both messages at once ("Bojack Kills" did try to juggle whale captivity and sex work, but it isn't considered on the same level as the "message episodes"). And "The Kidney Stays In The Picture" isn't really a "message episode" because the union plot is part of a story arc, and it's not even the A-plot.
• After season 5 got some complaints that the positive depiction of asexuality was becoming too much of a double standard by it's inversely derogatory depiction of sexually active people as hypersexual weirdos or desperate losers, season 6 shows Diane in a healthy, sexually active relationship with a man she eventually decides to marry. This page is the only time I have ever seen criticism of the show as too sex-negative. It's not even true; Princess Carolyn and Ralph had a healthy sexual relationship. If the show mostly depicts sexual people as dysfunctional, it's because most of the cast are dysfunctional in some way.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 16th 2020 at 2:28:52 PM

Yeah, those all look pretty suspect to me. The only one that might be an example is resolving the ambiguity resolving Todd's last name of Chavez and lack of any other recognizably Hispanic attributes (and non-Hispanic voice actor). Even that feels like a bit of a stretch; it's something viewers noticed and wondered about, but hardly a huge, pressing complaint.

None of the rest look to me like a direct response to audience complaints.

Also, ~Plasma Power, part of the reason why the Character pages are so bloated is because lots of plot tropes that only apply to one episode are there for some reason. If you're looking to flesh out the Recap pages, a good place to start might be to check the Character pages for tropes to more over to Recap. Two birds, one stone.

Going over mightymewtron's Wham Episode analysis:

S1:

• "Zoes and Zeldas": Disagree that this marks a major change in the status quo or shift in tone. BoJack gets up to sitcom shenanigans and maintains the status quo that Todd is a slacker who is dependent on BoJack. Cut.
• "Live Fast Diane Nguyen": Cut.
• "Our A-Story is a D-Story:" Cut. Does not change the status quo except in the most superficial sense. Does not mark a shift in tone.
• "Say Anything": Cut. A focus episode on what had been a secondary character does not a Wham Episode make.
• "The Telescope": Keep for reasons already discussed.
• "Horse Majeure:" Cut.
• "One Trick Pony:" Cut.
• "Downer Ending:" ZCE; cut as written. This might be worth more conversation if anyone cares to write up an actual example entry with full context.

S2:

• "Brand New Couch:" Cut.
• "Yesterdayland:" Cut.
• "Still Broken:" Cut.
• "After the Party:" Cut.
• "Chickens:" Cut.
• "Higher Love:" Cut.
• "Hank After Dark:" Cut. Agree that it's more of a Very Special Episode than a Wham Episode.
• "Let's Find Out:" Cut.
• "The Shot:" Cut. Yes, plot happens, but nothing earthshaking by the standards of the show up to this point. If you've been watching the last season and a half of BJH, you should be expecting ongoing plot developments in every episode.
• "Yes And:" Cut.
• "Escape From LA:" Cut. Yes, the episode packs an emotional punch, but it doesn't change the status quo, it restores it when BoJack returns to L.A.

S3:

• "That's Too Much Man!:" Keep, but rewrite to emphasize the ongoing effect of this episode on the show that follows. The death of a major character doesn't automatically make a Wham Episode, and while I think this is one, the entry text as written doesn't make a good argument for it.

S4:

• "The Old Sugarman Place:" Cut. This episode gives lots of interesting backstory and motivation for various characters, but again, does not actually change the status quo of the show, but rather restores it.
• "Ruthie:" Cut.
• "Time's Arrow:" Keep. It provides the closest thing we ever get to a resolution in the BoJack / Beatrice relationship, and it changes the status quo by effectively writing Beatrice out of the show.

S5:

• "Bo Jack the Feminist:" Cut as written. Could be worth more conversation if someone is interested in rewriting it, but as written, the entry does not make a good case for why this episode has additional dramatic impact or changes the status quo.
• "INT. SUB:" Cut.
• "Head in the Clouds:" Cut.
• "The Showstopper:" Keep.

S6:

• "A Quick One While He's Away:" Cut.
• "Xerox of a Xerox:" Keep, but rewrite. The entry as written does not do a good job of describing why the revelations come as a "wham" to the audience, and engages in speculative language (which is ridiculous, as the show is out in its entirety and we know exactly what the fallout is).
• "The Horny Unicorn:" Cut. This is more about exploring the fallout from the previous episode than being a "wham" in and of itself.
• "Angela:" Cut as written. The example text is merely a plot synopsis; it doesn't establish why it comes as a "wham" to the audience or how it changes the status quo.
• "The View from Halfway Down:" Cut. Amazing episode, fantastic rumination on life and death and mortality, but it does not actually change the status quo. BoJack does not die, and the actual status quo changes come in the next episode, not this one.
• "Nice While It Lasted:" Cut.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 17th 2020 at 7:46:04 AM

Proposed rewrites:

• That's Too Much, Man! spends the episode building up Sarah Lynn and BoJack's familial bond as he takes her on a wild bender, only for her to die of an overdose next to BoJack in the planetarium at the end of the episode. This incident horrifies BoJack so much that it motivates him to actually try and escape his bad behavior so he stops ruining the lives of others.
• Season 5, Episode 4, "Bojack the Feminist". With a title like that, it's obviously a politically-themed episode with little to no bearing on the plot like "Brrap Brrap Pew Pew" or "Thoughts and Prayers," right? Wrong. Not only does this episode see the return of Ana Spanakopita, but she gives the tape of Bojack talking about New Mexico to Diane, revealing the secret BoJack had been keeping from his friends for years. This sets forward the conflict between Diane and BoJack for the rest of the season that would completely destroy Diane's trust in BoJack.

(Not sure if the first line is natter or not, hard to succinctly explain why it's such a game-changer.)

• Episode 14, "Angela". Bojack is called by Angela Diaz, the executive who convinced BoJack to fire Herb from Horsin' Around. We learn that not only does she have to cut BoJack out of the show, but now, he won't even be making money from it anymore. And in one of the most devastating reveals of the entire show, she smugly admits to Bojack that she'd been terrified he would call her bluff when she gave him her Breaking Speech about firing Herb and had to practice it over and over, because if he'd actually stood up for Herb she would have been forced to keep him on the show, meaning BoJack actually had the power to decide Herb's fate all along. So not only has BoJack lost the right to claim Horsin' Around as his only success, he's also learned he ruined his best friendship for nothing. And if that's not enough, Angela gives Bojack alcohol causing him to go on a drunken bender. He breaks into the house that he had to sell and starts watching old episodes of Horsin' Around. Meanwhile, every other character gets resolution to their stories: Todd reconciles with his mother, Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter find closure on their relationship, and Judah confesses his love for Princess Carolyn, confirming them as an Official Couple.

Also, looking back, "Downer Ending" is more of a Tear Jerker than anything changing the status quo. In fact, not a lot of plot really happens in it. It's more just an examination of BoJack's psyche.

I'm also torn on "Escape From L.A." BoJack severs his connection with his last friend from his pre-fame years, and the actions that he takes in this episode are often seen as a Moral Event Horizon. However, the Penny thing never really provides a massive change to the status quo besides the above fight with Diane where she keeps distance from him.

Would "The Stopped Show" count as wham? Bojack going to rehab is a pretty big change to the status quo, but it's also pretty much what the plot was building to.

Also this page is full of sinkholes. Should we change that too? And should we remove the image (or at least the caption) since it's no longer an example?

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:44:36 AM