Unclear Description: Queer Media

In that case, add a note saying something like this:

Examples of Bara Genre, Yuri Genre, and Yaoi Genre can be found on those pages.

But throughout this thread we've discussed that it's often difficult to determine whether a work is for LGBT audiences. The consensus of this thread was to ditch the LGBT audience criterion by merging the two indexes.

While I agree with you in general about the audiences of Yuri and Yaoi, there are cases that blur the lines. For example Yaoi has a gay male Periphery Demographic (at least among english-speaking manga fans). There are also things that blur the lines- for example My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness describes itself as a Yuri manga despite being in my opinion a very clear candidate for this index, being a personal exploration of the creator's lesbian sexuality. Should this be removed for this reason?

Most everything has been moved but I have a question. There's a commented out note saying "Pure Yaoi, Bara, and Yuri examples do not fit here." Yet, some yuri and yaoi works are listed and some yaoi, bara, and yuri media do feature queer-centric themes.

So, what qualifies a yuri, yaoi, or bara work for Queer Media?

I'm fairly certain all Yuri, Yaoi, and Bara has queer themes. I'd be in favor cutting that comment.

Yaoi is predominantly aimed at straight teenage girls and young women, while a lot of yuri is also aimed at straight girls, so that might be why it was added. A lot of works don't cover queer-topics beyond surface level "These two men/women like each other" and maybe "*Enter gayngst here*". For example, there's usually a stark difference between lesbian-aimed yuri and mainstream yuri.

I think we're risking getting to into the weeds of what "queer topics" means. Pointless attempts to parse intended audiences is part of the reason we cut the old Queer Media page. I say any story that centers on a love story between two characters of the same gender counts, whether it addresses "issues" around that or not.

But like I said, we already have indices for Yuri, Yaoi, and Bara. Adding them here would be redundant.

If we want, we could just treat those three like certain other Anime Fan Speak pages (Dojikko, Oba-san, etc.), saying "No examples, please. Put them on Queer Media."

It might be better, though, to keep them separate to avoid redundancy.

I don't think so. Works can be on more than one index. Yaoi and yuri refer to specific types of Japanese works. It overlaps with Queer Media but is also its own thing.

Would it be okay to move the yuri and yaoi example to Queer Media?

Maybe for My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness, but I don't want to lump all yuri and yaoi into Queer Media (bara has an index lockout) because it'd be less specific and bloat the page.

Why don't we just move the notice to the main page? I would reword it to something like this:

"While Yuri, Yaoi and Bara technically count as queer media, they have their own indexes; please list such works there. Only list Anime and Manga examples that do not clearly fit into one of those categories."

Do they always count as Queer Media? I don't think so, per Pichu-kun's comment:

Also, Bara Genre doesn't allow examples. How about just saying "Yuri and Yaoi have their own indexes; please list such works there. Only list anime and manga examples that do not clearly fit into one of those categories."

The video game section may need some cleanup. I find Catherine's presence dubious; there's only a trans side character and the romance option Rin in the remake, who's actually a male alien.

Edited by rjd1922 on May 9th 2019 at 5:03:15 AM

how about:

"While Yuri and Yaoi Genre works often include queer themes, they are not universally queer media. These genres have their own indices, so list those works there instead of here."

e: atlus has a long history of badly mishandling queer issues of all stripes. i dont think anything made by them qualifies as queer media.

Edited by razorrozar7 on May 9th 2019 at 3:07:15 AM

That disclaimer seems more neutral and avoids this whole debate about whether Yuri and Yaoi count, let's go with that.

Edit: Yeah, agree about the video games. Most of the examples listed there seem to be works that have queer characters whose identity/story are peripheral to the main plot of story.

Also, why is I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry listed? The main characters aren't actually gay, and the movie's been criticized for homophobia despite its Gay Aesop.

Edited by naturalironist on May 9th 2019 at 6:40:58 AM

I was under the impression we were getting rid of the requirement that the work explore nebulous "Queer themes". I stand by the position that all works centered on same-gender romance count, and if not we should actually articulate an alternate definition.

The film centers on queer subject matter. It explores the subject extremely poorly, and sucks as a film in general, but it stilll counts. Inclusion on this index is not a value judgement.

i went back through the thread and i dont see a consensus about either of those positions.

Edited by razorrozar7 on May 9th 2019 at 4:26:10 AM

I was under the impression that the vote to merge with Gay and Lesbian Fiction reflected the view that trying to parse works about queer characters based on intended audience and the degree to which they explore "issues" was pointless (previously that was the division btwn GALF and Queer Media). The stance that all same-gender romance counts is my own opinion. If the definition is something more specific than that then we need to articulate what is meant by "queer themes" such that centering in same-gender romance is not in-and-of itself, a queer theme.

Edited by TheMountainKing on May 9th 2019 at 7:34:02 AM

you have a point with the merge.

regarding romance, i feel like it's about the way it's presented. if the fact that it's a non-straight romance is incidental, and it's a standard romance story that just happens to be with a queer couple, i don't think it qualifies.

What is the standard for qualifying, in your opinion?

the fact that i cant come up with an unambiguous standard suggests that i might be overthinking this. ill have a think about it and see if i can come up with anything, but consider my objections withdrawn for now.

This is was at the back of the TRS thread... What was the winning crowner option?

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jan 4th 2020 at 8:44:09 AM

"Rename Gay And Lesbian Fiction to "Queer Media", delete Queer Media"

I've restored the crowner.

Well, it seems like Gay And Lesbian Fiction was cut ages ago... was its contents transferred over to Queer Media? I've been trying to check via the Wayback Machine, but the page won't load for me.

Also, just noticed the amount of inbounds it has - perhaps it should've been turned into a redirect instead of being cut outright.

Do we have anything left to do? If not, we can call it done.