Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

From YMMV.The Emperors New School:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Kuzco in "Groove Remover". Sure, it was cruel of everyone in Kuzco Academy to laugh at Kuzco's unpleasant appearance, thanks to Yzma's potion soap, but he really had it coming—throughout the first half of the episode, he made fun of his classmates' flaws, so the viewers may think that possessing those flaws and being laughed at is pure karma for Kuzco.

Well. I mean this sounds more like Karma then us being meant to find him sympathetic. Plus, its Kuzco, the definition of self-centered and the whole point of each episode is that he learns a lesson.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 20th 2024 at 9:56:12 AM

We got another unauthorised Wish (2023) addition, along with a Designated Hero edit and an extended add-on to Strawman Has a Point (which I will bring up on the complaining thread).

As for the Unintentionally Unsympathetic edit specifically;

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The People of Rosas. When they are informed by Magnifico of what he believes to be a potential threat to the Kingdom (who unbeknownst to him is just Star), they quickly end up telling him that all they care about is having their wishes granted and end up making him promise to grant their wishes in exchange for information about the threat, this plus the fact that they've only applied to be his apprentice to get their families wishes before ditching the position, doesn't win them any sympathy points, and only makes it easier to understand Magnifico becoming disillusioned with them and starting to view his relationship with them as All Take and No Give.
  Magnifico: SCILENCE! Is that all you can think about?! A Wish-Granting Ceremony!?!
  Random Citizen: (excitedly nods)

Compared to some of their other edits, this one admittedly seems pretty well-worded (I haven't seen the movie myself, however, so what is detailed here may not be entirely accurate). However, it was still added without consultation with the thread.

I am conflicted. It is better worded but like it was added without discussion.

I didn't know that it was something that needed to be discussed before been added, or where to discuss it

If you have no disagreements with it, can you re-add it, or at least tell me where it should be discussed before been re-added

It should be discussed here and there is a note on the page. I don't know if it actually counts, but I also don't really care one way or another on this one.

I'll add to it to the Wish YMMV Discussion page

If it holds up there, I'll re-add it to the page

Edited by GreatStormDragon on Feb 21st 2024 at 2:22:40 AM

On YMMV.Im In Love With The Villainess:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Claire pre-Character Development: her upbringing and Freudian Excuses aside, some people consider her to still be nothing more than an elitist jerk, especially in her viewpoint of the commoner movement. Although considering that she was designed as the villainess of a story, this is more along the lines of intentionally unsympathetic that some fans have a harder time seeing past than Rae does.

I feel Claire pre-Character Development should not count, since as the example itself says, she is intentionally unsympathetic at the start, as she is the titular villainess.

Edited by Tylerbear12 on Feb 21st 2024 at 11:57:28 AM

Agree. Cut.

Agree. That was her entire character design until Rae got close to her.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 21st 2024 at 1:09:27 PM

Cut.

Entry has been cut citing this thread.

Edited by Tylerbear12 on Feb 21st 2024 at 2:51:13 PM

Can an Unintentionally Sympathetic entry exist for a character if they're already listed as crossing the Moral Event Horizon? For example, I had written an Unintentionally Sympathetic entry for the Pokémon Masters page, not realizing Paulo already had an entry under Moral Event Horizon. Here are the two entries for context:

• Moral Event Horizon: Paulo fully cements his Face–Heel Turn when he sides with Team Break and gives them Legendaries to use against the other villains.

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Paulo's decision to use the power of Hoopa to "eliminate all evil" is meant to be seen as Paulo falling victim to He Who Fights Monster and becoming Drunk on the Dark Side. However, given most of the villains in the series have no remorse for their actions and have evaded any punishment no matter the police's efforts, many argue Paulo's desire to enact vigilante justice is both understandable and rather responsible. The latter point is bolstered by Lear and everybody else seemingly content to allow the villains to roam Pasio freely and continue their plans to their heart's content.

So does one entry need to go?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 10:17:42 AM

I think it's fine. They're contrasting, but redeemability and sympathy aren't the same thing and it's possible for the work to have successfully made them evil without making the fandom fully turn against them.

There’s this example from UnintentionallySympathetic.And Then There Were None that I think should be cut

Lombard is unquestionably a racist, sexist guy who's done unethical things and would probably do so again if given time. His fans generally see him as an overly chivalrous guy who didn't know any better about Natives because of the time period. He's also the Only Sane Man Deadpan Snarker of the group most of the time, making him waaaaaay more fun to read about then most other people. He's also the only person to flat-out admit his crime at the beginning, making everyone else look like dishonest liars around him.

• The thing is even though he's fairly evil, you end up rooting for him to survive because he's an engaging interesting character, and probably has the best chance of doing so.
  • Lombard's backstory also establishes that he's handled danger more than once. He immediately seems like a character with the potential to go the distance, and the reader finds it easier to root for him because he's the guest with arguably the best chance of surviving. We sense there's little danger of him not making it to the end, which we can't say about a character like the general.
  • Lombard also might be a somewhat favorite due to the fact that he's a bit like what James Bond might have been if he'd been completely selfish, somewhat morally bankrupt, and hadn't found his way into Mi-6.

The entry doesn’t really talk about how he comes off as sympathetic mostly just how he comes off as entertaining.

That seems like a lot of words to say "i can excuse racism and sexism if the character is funny".

Which im pretty sure is not what US is about.

Looking at that page, every character has an US entry. That seems questionable to me, especially since the killer get's an US entry for targeting guilty people.

Edited by SharkToast on Feb 24th 2024 at 5:19:33 AM

That all reads more like Rooting for the Empire if anything. "Entertaining" =/= "sympathetic."

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind taking a closer look at the other entries on that page, I cut Lombard already.

Here's the entry for the killer that I mentioned earlier:

• Wargrave is a sadist and a serial killer but, much in the same line as Dexter Morgan, he only goes after guilty people, therefore he keeps the audience's sympathy even though he makes it clear that he killed people first and foremost for his own twisted amusement, with justice being served as a indirect bonus. Plus he offs himself at the end. Also, he makes it clear that he's never done anything like what he does on the island before, he always kept the urge in check and settled for punishing the guilty with death sentences. It's only the knowledge that he has a terminal illness and is going to die badly that pushes him to end up doing what he does, and as we find out, everyone there pretty much deserves it.

As I said before, the reasoning for why the killer is sympathetic is because they target people who deserve it. The problem is, every one of their victims (sans Lombard now) has an US entry. I can't see a case where a character is sympathetic because they kill a bunch of characters the audience finds sympathetic. Either the killer is sympathetic and their victims had it coming or the victims are sympathetic and the killer is a monster.

Well Broken Base is a thing that exists, so it’s possible that the killer might be sympathetic to some readers and the victims are not, and to others the victims are sympathetic and the killer is not.

UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Pokemon

• In the Teal Mask DLC, Carmine is presented as a Jerk with a Heart of Gold with a soft spot for Ogerpon after the truth about her is revealed, and her growing past her dislike of tourists and growing kinder to others (while still having her rough edges) is well-liked by many players. However, others take issue with her abrasiveness towards her brother Kieran bordering on full-blown verbal abuse with her afromentioned protectiveness for Ogerpon contrasting her treatment of Kieran. It isn't helped by her only briefly getting called out for her bullying once by her grandfather during The Teal Mask... which infamously leads to her stating that she was being nice since she didn't hit him that many players struggle to let her live down. It led to a number of players blaming her entirely for Kieran's Sanity Slippage going into Indigo Disk as a result of that plus her forcing the player to lie to him about the truth of Ogerpon, especially since she still doesn't ease up on it as much as one would expect when watching her brother on a downward spiral. While Kieran is definitely also at fault for his behavior (and arguably the player, albeit with no real choice on their part), the most Carmine gets at the end of the DLC's story is Kieran calling her out on her bully behavior during the trip at Area Zero's depths and her having a Jerkass Realization; the game never gives the player a chance to call her out before this, so she gets away with it until the very end.

The last part was recently added. I intend to cut the whole entry as she did get called out/karma in the sequel planned before the backlash, this is just complaint about the player not having the option to do so (which I belive is only UU if the game normally gives the option which isn't the case here).

Yeah, cut all that. The very fact that she does get called out and the plot portrays said calling-out as justified, leading to a Jerkass Realization, means that the unsympathetic elements weren't "unintentional" to begin with.

So if a character has a Jerkass Realization they can’t count? In that case should these entries be deleted?

• Molly Hale from Spell of the Unown while not a Pokémon herself, is also treated by the narrative as Not Evil, Just Misunderstood on account of being a 5-year-old who lost her father. However, the things she does upon gaining ultimate power cause some to lose sympathy. For starters, Molly has Entei (who Molly believes to be her father reincarnated) kidnap Delia Ketchum to act as a new mother for her despite Molly's mother still being alive and simply on medical leave (in the Japanese version at least: the dub instead had Molly's mother trapped in the Unown Dimension like her father, making her actions more understandable if still wrong). In addition, Molly is constantly using the power of the Unown to exert her will in spite of it being clear to even a child her age that it's causing nothing but pain to those around her. While Molly does eventually realize the error of her ways, some fans felt it was too little too late.

• Pokémon Adventures: Norman from the Ruby & Sapphire chapter is supposed to be seen as a noble Papa Wolf who cares for his son deep down in spite of their differing interests, and is simply frustrated by the fact he was forced to take the blame for his son letting a Rayquaza escape captivity, note which delayed his promotion to Gym Leader by five years and forced Norman to spend multiple years searching for Rayquaza. The reader is supposed to see Norman as a good father and person given that Norman's death triggers Ruby's Heroic BSoD and his revival by Celebi being treated by the narrative as a joyous moment. However, there are multiple reasons that some fans doubt Norman's love for his son and feel Ruby would be better off without him. For starters, Norman was at best annoyed by his son's decision to become a Coordinator, which Ruby did in part due to the trauma of the Rayquaza incident. It's implied this disapproval is because Norman carries resentment towards Ruby for the Rayquaza incident, but ultimately, there was no reason to take the blame. Ruby was only six at the time, so it's highly unlikely there would've been any serious punishment given, making Norman's choice to protect Ruby a Stupid Sacrifice and his subsequent viewpoint on Ruby's choices feel like a cruel dismissal of Ruby's trauma. Furthermore, when Ruby runs away under the belief Norman would never approve of him being a Coordinator, Noman goes searching for him. However, when Norman manages to locate his son instead of trying to talk things out, Norman proceeds to punch Ruby and try to take him home by force.

Molly Hale's entry should absolutely go, especially since the fan consensus that I've seen on her is that she is successfully sympathetic as a five year old who lost both of her parents and doesn't know how to process grief yet.

The tropes aren't just "character is sympathetic/unsympathetic", it's Unintentionally Sympathetic/Unsympathetic. The unintentional part is necessary. So if a character's behavior is acknowledged in-universe (by the character themselves or others), that's something to keep an eye out for.

In Carmine's case, Teal Mask and Indigo Disk were always presented as a two-part story, and her actions in part 1 directly lead into the setup for part 2, and then in said part 2, she's called out for it and realizes she was wrong. That seems pretty intentional to me all together. Teal Mask can't just be taken in a vacuum here.

Also yeah, cut Molly. A: she's literally five and B: her causing problems once she gets Unown power is the plot. Like the characters in-universe don't agree with her or think she should be allowed to do whatever she wants. It's quite clear that she needs to stop.