What are villains to you?

This one is a little confusing really, but I'll try to explain it.

I've been thinking about how Franchise/Dragonball uses its villains. Many of them feel more like obstacles the hero needs to overcome. They never last past the arc they are introduced in, and if they do, it's only for them to be beaten by either the far stronger heroes, or an even more powerful villain.

This might be selling them a bit short truthfully (despite being a long time fan of Dragonball, I'm becoming more and more aware of the fact that I don't understand the series as well as I thought I did), but it makes me think about the nature of villains. What should they be?

An obstacle for the hero to overcome? A recurring force that moves the plot along? A massive game changer that forces every character to up take their powers to the next level? Someone who makes the hero question everything they know about where they live?

What are villains to you guys?

Nothing to me, really.

Something that is unnecessary for my story but that sometimes tries to find a way into it anyway, creating multiple troublesome or unsympathetic figures that occupy a similar role for certain subplots but generally don't fit.

Other than that, I see villains as being active forces more often than not, so I associate them with a impetus to shakes things up in pursuit of a goal without thinking too much of the consequences. However that trait is shared by some heroic characters, even if not enough to make Villains Act, Heroes React not the norm.

But going deeper, I associate the figure of the villain more closely to certain stylistic elements and narrative situations than to philosophy, goals or even actions, despite liking protagonists with a sense of morality or/and ethics.

In fact, some of my main characters could be described as "heroic villains", ircorporating some personality and style elements associated with both heroes and villains, but mostly villains, even if their moralities exist on different points of a wide spectrum and my favorite of them are A Lighter Shade of Gray.

edited 10th Feb '17 10:33:07 AM by EternaMemoria

Someone who opposes the hero (or even is the "hero"), and may not necessarily be completely evil.

to sum up this thread, villains do not exist. they're only an intelligent opposition to the other side.

To me, a villain is someone who tries to get ahead at the expense of others. Either deliberately, or just a "got mine, fuck you" attitude.

First, we need to take a second and distinguish "villain" from "antagonist". All stories have an antagonist, even if it's just Mother Nature, the system or the protagonist himself. All it means is the primary entity or force the protagonist must oppose to achive their goal. In other words, it's a representation of the conflict. It has no other inherent properties.

So what is a villain? A villain is an antagonist who is morally bankrupt in some way that is both consistent and relevant to the primary conflict.

It's really that simple.

When I look at villains (so not just antagonists, that's a whole other discussion) in fiction that really stood out to me, ^{some examples} Nicodemus in the Dresden Files, the Slaughterhouse Nine in Worm, the Joker in The Dark Knight, Azula in Avatar: The Last Airbender, Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back most of them have one thing in common: they managed to hurt the hero, be it physically or emotionally. They did more than oppose the hero for the sake of the plot or to just be a punching-bag or in some philosophical or ideological way, the conflict got personal, and their actions cost the hero something that they can't get back. It's those villains that are really memorable, because 1) they are emphatically not some kind of obstacle on the road of the plot, but they themselves often shape the plot, and shape the hero as well. Their effect on the hero is lasting, even long after they're inevitably defeated. And 2) they are usually the kind that you love to hate. You really want to see them go down in flames, and that makes it all the more satisfying when they do. That also makes for some memorable moments.

Of course that's not the only type of villain that can work well, and it's no recipe for success. But done well I think this approach can create some great villains.

edited 11th Feb '17 7:47:20 AM by QuestionMarker

In that case, why do a lot of people use "antagonist" and "villain" to mean the same thing?

Well, they do often tend to intersect.

There are villains that you love to hate, and there are some that you simply loathe. For example, Darth Vader versus Emperor Palpatine.

Vader (as portrayed in the Original Star Wars Trilogy) was Evil with a capital E, but he was cool. Sure he was ruthless and killed his underlings at the drop of a hat, but he had some quality that made you, if not actually love him, than love to hate him.

Palpatine, on the other hand, was just creepy and slimy and disgusting. His over-the-top, corruption-for-its-own-sake, Evil just for shits and giggles attitude was a major turnoff. I can't imagine why anyone would willingly follow him, and his death was about as satisfying to me as squishing a cockroach. (i.e., "Ugh, gotta clean off the floor and my shoe now.")

Another villain that people loved to hate was J. R. Ewing, from Dallas. He routinely screwed people over, and always did it with a smile on his face. But every so often, someone would get the best of him, and we loved to watch him squirm whenever that happened.

edited 12th Feb '17 5:12:14 PM by pwiegle

Villains are individuals that through interaction with our hero, allows us to witness the hero's skill, motivations, and will. So villains are obstacles that scrape off pieces of the hero's soul as they are overcome. However, this doesn't mean villains should be one-dimensional and boring. A good villain is someone who can not only challenge the hero (physically or mentally/emotionally), but impact the audience. This can come in the form of a serial killer villain or a villain that you love to hate (a villain with redeemable qualities). And all of this will thus move the plot along.

Maybe this is oversimplified, but for me villains are bad guys. Usually the protagonist is a good guy, and he fights the bad guys. I like stories with fights in them. I like when heroes fight the bad guys and defeat them.

Sometimes I write stories without bad guys. I guess not every story needs a bad guy. I think about my story Kingdom Path, which is about a guy on a long walk through magical worlds. He faces obstacles but no true bad guys. Just setbacks, some somewhat bad but mostly just chaotic guys, also people aren't telling him the whole story which is a problem all in itself.

But for me, a villain is a bad guy who the good guys fight against. If there's no epic fight, then maybe they're just an antagonist.