Do Writers Simply Have Trouble Making The Amazons Sympathetic?

It seems that Perez, Rucka, Simone and Jiminez are the only post-crisis that seem interested in portraying the Amazons in a sympathetic light. Other writers simply make them antagonists with almost no redeeming qualities or they completely bungle it . What do you suppose is the problem? Is it more difficult to portray an entire nation of women as sympathetic or is making them antagonists just easier?

There's definitely a sexist element, as well as a perception that the Amazons are too "perfect" and thus need to be taken down a peg by turning them into antagonists. Kinda the same line of thinking that's turned the Guardians of the Universe into self-righteous, clueless jerks.

It just gets worse with Wonder Woman, because, well, sexism. The very idea that there's this all-woman utopia clearly rubs a lot of writers the wrong way, especially since Diana's goodness is generally tied to that upbringing. Thus, endless Straw Feminist characterization in order to artificially create conflict or to create an easy flaw to tear down.

Introducing an all-female utopia as a counter-argument to modern American gender roles tends to not go over well with anyone who thinks that modern gender roles are just fine, thanks. So, the whole thing gets polticized, and there's no room left for the Amazons to just be generally decent people - everything becomes a statement on gender politics, and thus volatile and often very charged.

There's also the way just about any utopia runs the risk of looking preachy and unrealistic... which is what utopia means in a nutshell. Simply portraying the Amazons as a female only society instead might be a better idea in the long run, since it's a bit counter-productive for one writer to try and design a utopia only for the majority of other writers to deconstruct it at every turn.

I should point out the Amazons haven't been a Utopia society since the Perez run. He did have them be flawed but still decent people.

There is the idea as well that the Amazon society is not only questioning conventional gender roles, but judging them, and that is pretty much how Marston intended them. There has traditionally been something of a "we've got it right, the rest of you suck" vibe to them.

Understand as well that a lot of male writers, heck a lot of men possibly, simply don't like the idea of a society that has no place in it for them.

There is a sexist element to it as well, I'm sure. As you've pointed out, the Guardians of the Universe have been treated somewhat similarly, either being turned into self-righteous authoritarians or else having their male-only status undone in one way or another (as in the Millennium series or, as in the Justice League animated series, sneaking in a female Guardian).

In the case of the Guardians, their male-only status wasn't a knock against women or a judgement (or at least, it wasn't essential to read it as such); when they became immortal, their species no longer had any reason to procreate, so the males and females went their separate ways, the men to become Oans —Guardians — the women Zamarons.

edited 18th Jun '16 9:30:26 AM by Robbery

Thread bump

It doesn't help that William Moulton Marston, who created DC's Amazons, was a genuine female supremacist: he was outspoken about believing that women are superior to men and should be the ones in charge of society. So it makes sense to look a little askance at his portrayal of an all-female utopia.

But has been dead for decades and the book moved on from him. Why write the Amazons in a way that is little more than a reaction to his views?

Utopian societies are problematic when too much attention is paid to them. The same is true for gender-specific societies. Gender-specific institutions in the real world tend to be problematic as well.

Possibly writers have trouble making Amazons sympathetic because they don't feel that the Amazons are really a good idea.

Indeed. Likely for the same reason, Wonder Woman sometimes gets the Bonkers Betty treatment - when the whole character is designed as essentially a purity Sue come to teach the world the wrongness of our ways, it's no great wonder why someone might raise an eyebrow and offer a different interpretation. For all the flak her modern straightforward warrior woman image gets, it's a lot more workable as story material.

Still, I'd say the best way to humanize the Amazons would be to have some men around as foils, especially in the style of Nathan Fillion's more casual Steve Trevor. After all, with society marching on at least somewhat from the 40's, the original stance against the world of men could use some serious revision in order to keep a functional dynamic.

Again, I'd point to the Perez andf Rucka versions who were neither purity sues or bloodthirsty warriors. There's a middle ground that some writers are just lazy to find. And while I don't think Diana should be a prutity sue, she can still raise some good points about gender inequality without having to be perfect.

Well they were letting men on the island pre Flashpoint.

I also, wonder if maybe more emphasis on their past as victims of oppression might help somewhat in showing were they're coming from without excusing them.

I really feel like Legend of Wonder Woman nailed it, in this respect. The Amazons are judgey of the outside world largely by being unaware of it - they still have solid and heroic values that inspire Diana to heroism - and they are a complex cast of allies and antagonists for Diana to deal with.

It kind of goes back to what Robbery said; "Understand as well that a lot of male writers, heck a lot of men possibly, simply don't like the idea of a society that has no place in it for them."

I'd say it's part that, part the setting being boring - not inherently, mind you, but personally I have the exact same reaction whenever Krypton is featured, or even alternate universes - they're disconnected from the main world, meaning most of what happens there is utterly inconsequential filler. Atlantis and the Amazons serve a purpose for Aquaman and Wonder Woman stories, respectively, but otherwise, the less they're involved, the better.

They're as much a part of the main world as anything else. And arcs in those places are not always filler.

Can't agree with you more, on that one. I've frequently felt the less said about Krypton, the better. That may just be because, historically, so much emphasis has been placed on Krypton.

Superman's got an out, though, as Krypton is dead and gone (or at least it frickin' should be, Phantom Zoners and Kandorians possibly excepted); if Wonder Woman is supposed to be an emissary from the Amazons, they kinda have to show the Amazons occasionally (of course, maybe she doesn't have to be an emissary).

edited 14th Jul '16 9:21:36 PM by Robbery

Agree. Its like if you dedicate all of the adventures of Green Lantern on Oa. It's not a bad setting but it should only be reserved for major events that could threaten the status quo. After all its a series about a space cop protecting the peace across the galaxy.

Same can be said for Martian Manhunter; part of the appeal to the character is how he is marooned on Earth, so Mars shouldn't appear very often.

Atlantis is pretty mixed though, as while Aquaman is made to be the protector of the sea he is also the king of Atlantis. So of course scenes involving Atlantis will occur but Aquaman have to also have adventures outside of the city to show off his protector status.

It also goes back to that horrid Amazons Attack series. That did damage to their reputation that might not be possible to fix.

I recall reading somewhere that in Rucka's version of Amazons Attack that he was supposed to write, the Amazons would be the ones being attacked by the U.S instead of being the aggressors.

Which is kind of ironic as that should of been the first thing the New 52 should of fixed as fans hate the whole man hating murderous Amazons. Instead we got Amazon Attack 2.0 where Donna Troy (Wonder Woman's sister) becomes leader of the Amazons and lead a campaign in killing all men period . . . or is that Amazon Attack 3.0 as 2.0 is the Flashpoint story arc that created New 52 where an alternate universe Diana wage a war on all nations, but specifically Atlantis due to her cheating relationship with Aquaman went south.

So yeah, I agree with you as the moment that one bad story arc appear all future takes on the Amazons have been nothing but Straw Feminist bringing the Tumblr SJ Ws goals to its illogical conclusion.

Thank God for DC Rebirth actually taking the initiative in fixing this shit! I seriously don't want to continue living in a world where Donna Troy is a total bitch.

But what about a moment where Donna Troy calls herself a bitch?

That's right. I went there.

Huh?

Does she look like bitch?

edited 16th Jul '16 12:26:40 AM by Mizerous

No, she looks like a human.

Seriously when did Donna call herself a bitch?