A Single Unified LGBT Character Thread

Bleh, did it again.

I'm thinking about doing a work someday about queer people and it involves their history with religion, particularly Christianity. It involves a black Protestant lesbian who is closeted from most people sans her close family and two friends. She joins an LGBT social group. That group is headed by a Tragic Bigot who holds a grudge against Christians. She also befriends an old pastor, who is what you would call "tolerant" (I don't hate the sinner, just the sin/I don't agree with their lifestyle).

Does anyone have any advice on what I should do?

i really hate doing this, but it needs to be answered.

whelp, I'm in the dark with this one.

so I'm considering doing a webcomic detailing the relationship between 2 boys of different backgrounds. one's a guy who's raised in a conservative catholic while the other was raised by a fey god in the otherworld. in the middle of it all is a Muslim immigrant girl who is trying her best to support this relationship. due to her family's values, however, she can't bring herself to understand it. but, since the topic around Islam's view on homosexuality is a bit complex, I'm not sure how to go about this

Mhm, what's your question?

If your Tragic Bigot is someone who dislikes Christianity because of how it treated them, then I'd probably be more inclined to support them than the pastor with the tired as hell, "sin not the sinner" stichk.

I'm also not sure what exactly your question is.

Would she really want to support the relationship if she can't bring herself to understand it? Unless you want to explore Islam's view on homosexuality, in which case you'll have to do some research after which you might know how to go about it, I suggest you need not make the girl all that religious.

I'm confident every religion has spiritual people who reject fundamentalist intolerance. I'm pretty sure the core reason is probably the same for every background. But the way that takes shape would be different, so I'd still want to consult with people of those backgrounds to write adequate characters.

see, what im trying to get at is the Tragic Bigot character does not welcome the idea of queer christians. when they find out the protagonist happens to be a queer christian, they only "tolerate" her, even though it's blatantly obvious they (and by they im referring to the head of the group and their two friends) are mistreating her. now, with the pastor, on the other hand, i plan to make him have a change of heart. at first he sees the protagonist as mentally ill or misguided, until he ends up learning that he was essentially spoon-fed propaganda all his life after realizing he has been hoodwinked by this group he joined that claims to be a christian sect, yet would actually be more considered a cult, who manipulated him into believing that (they're going to be the Greater-Scope Villain of some sorts). he has his congregation go up to the group to tell them they want to help them (as in standing with them), and the rest of the group runs up to them and hugs them, while the head of the group just looks on in disgust. once the congregation's token fundamentalist, disgusted in the fact that they're siding with these "sinful heathens," as well as feeling betrayed in the fact that the pastor has "been tricked" by the lgbt group, attempts to murder a gay male couple, who the protagonist befriended, with the use of a homemade explosive, they have their group shun her, as well as the congregation. i havent thought up of any ending to it yet, but i plan to have it involve redemption, so i might need advice with it.

what i'm also trying to do is make the Tragic Bigot be sympathetic, but not make them do anything... heinous, nor do i want to strawman anyone because that wouldnt paint the message in a good light. that and strawmanning does not make a good argument in general.

edited 2nd Apr '17 1:05:36 PM by I-Teleported-Bread

I'm remarkably uncomfortable with the idea of calling a gay person a "bigot", tragic or otherwise, for harbouring distaste for Christianity.

Being a minority isn't a "get out free" card.

well, im actually trying to make the character sympathetic in the sense that they are rightfully angry at christianity. they later conquer this prejudice by the end of the work, though.

though i kinda want it to be a bit more realistic so that it doesnt come off like glurgey inspiration porn.

edited 2nd Apr '17 10:38:27 PM by I-Teleported-Bread

Being a minority isn't a get out of jail free card in terms of being otherwise "bigoted" (eg. there are certainly racist gay people and there's no justification for that) but disliking and rejecting an institution (or set of institutions) directly involved in your own persecution isn't "bigotry" nor is it unjustified. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're a straight Christian so, to be frank, this isn't your conversation to have.

That's fair I guess. It is definitely a good idea to make it clear that this is a single individual being somewhat toxic towards another member of their community, and that it's more complicated than them being just "wrong" if you get me. Just try avoid the narrative of " now it's the gays that are being oppressive to the Christians!!" y'know.

...Yeah I totally have nothing to say in the face of the mighty ad hominem.

Please do not say something like that. Everyone here is free to join the conversation as long as they stay civil. I'd also kindly ask of you to refrain from making assumptions about people's ethnicity and sexuality/gender identity in such a way, that just seems rude.

On the Tragic Bigot in question: As I've understood it, the problem here isn't her distaste for christianity, it's that it makes her be mean to people (EDIT:the protagonist) who haven't done her any harm.

Why would she want to avoid "Now it's the gays that are being oppressive to the Christians!!"? It would certainly invoke Not So Different, and show that nobody, no matter how oppressed their group, is safe from being a bigot. But I agree, it might be prudent to make sure it's understood that the author doesn't think every gay person is like that, but that seems obvious.

edited 3rd Apr '17 7:03:30 AM by ilili

to change the topic, in ireland, are gays treated as people or not?

Look they can obviously participate in this conversation (as in the thread) but it's not up to straight people to try define homophobia or what gay people are "justified" in feeling. Know your place in the conversation like it's not that complicated.

And lmao not to be uncivil or anythingg but... seriously no the "gays oppress the Christians now" is basically just a popular homophobic narrative and ignores the structural nature of oppression. Even if all gay people did believe it, it would be fine.

.....yes

edited 3rd Apr '17 7:14:50 AM by VincentQuill

just asking, since I'm trying to be at least accurate with the cultural environment of Ireland.

Okay I was probably a bit glib there, as an Irish gay man yeah I can confirm Ireland is pretty okay for LGBT rights (for comparison I'd say it's pretty much like your standard US blue state) but obviously imperfect. For context, in 2015 all but one of the 26 counties in the Republic voted in favour of Marriage Equality and the overall vote was roughly 2:1 in favour despite well-funded heavy campaigning by groups like the Iona Institute and the Catholic Church itself against it.

Also worth noting that anti-clericalism has set in pretty well these last few years. Between the Mother and Baby Homes scandals in Tuam,to the Industrial Schools, to the Magdalene Laundries scandal, to the child abuse scandals, the Church has lost nearly all of its status as a moral authority in this country. Thankfully.

It'll really vary a lot depending on whether your story is set in Dublin or out in like Leitrim or somewhere, though.

Do you have any more specific questions?

edited 3rd Apr '17 7:26:11 AM by VincentQuill

It's up to anyone able to rationally think about the matter, regardless of race, ethnicity, sexuality and gender identity. If I see someone talking shit to a gay person because they're gay, I don't have to be gay myself to see the problem. What you're essentially doing is telling straight people to shut up when the homosexuals are talking, which is neither nice nor constructive.

See, that right there is just not civil at all.

It appears I need some schooling concerning the structural nature of oppression. Would you care to remedy that? Also, having every single homosexual person be an asshole to christians not actively oppressing them would not be okay at all.

edited 3rd Apr '17 7:36:12 AM by ilili

my web-comic takes place in small town with no name (since the founders couldn't agree on a name for it). after Andrew, one of my characters, averts the wrath of the morrigan upon the town, he reveals to almost everyone that he's gay after having a kissing scene with morrin, his male love interest (and the adopted son of morrigan).

not sure what would happen next since Ireland has a lot of districts with differing opinions.

Look I'm going to try my best to be "civil" or whatever here but like first of all don't call gay people "homosexuals", that's gone seriously out of fashion, and secondly I don't understand what you're not getting. As a gay man I experience homophobia and can understand it in a way that you, regardless of your great skills of "rationality" or whatever, can't (like it's my life not just something I think about when it comes up in internet discussions). So yeah, frankly if you're having a discussion about LGBT rights and an LGBT person says to shut up because you're wrong about something, you should listen. Like I'm white so obviously I don't have all that useful of a perspective in say a discussion about race and racism and so all my opinions there aren't based on my own reasoning (which will always have gaps) but learned from observing conversations and discussions between people of colour based on their own lived experiences. Be aware of what your role is in a discussion.

As for the second part, you can just google "structural oppression" and get a good explanation so I'm not going to go in depth here, but basically homophobia is embedded into the workings of society whereas anti-Christianity is distinctly... not at all, in fact quite the opposite, and so there isn't any bite behind LGBT anti-clericalism whereas Christian homophobia and transphobia has real life and horrific consequences. Show me one Christian kid who killed themselves after being bullied by the gays like. LGBT resentment of the church is justified and natural (though LGBT people should probably try be sympathetic and understanding to Christian LGBT people, but it's a complex and nuanced situation that most LGBT people understand).

First issue is that it's very unlikely you'll find an unnamed town in Ireland. Ireland is a lot older than the USA and over the course of its history has named pretty much every potential settlement site. If you could pick a vague area on the map you were thinking of, I could probably give you slightly more help as to the situation there (although Dublin would be where I'm most familiar given that I've lived here my entire life).

edited 3rd Apr '17 7:58:10 AM by VincentQuill

the reason was because, well, i don't know what to name it. i guess i could have it next door or take place there, but I'm wondering if it has the following:

• a private school
• a church
• and a graveyard
• forest
• has a sizable population of crows and ravens.

if that isn't the case, might as well make up a town.

but what exactly were you're thoughts on the spoiler actually (unless i didn't see it)

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:59:43 AM by ewolf2015

Yeah I saw the spoiler, and yeah I think the reaction would definitely vary depending on the guy's family's religious, socioeconomic, and regional background so I can't give a definitive answer.

As for the town, a church and a graveyard are pretty much guaranteed anywhere you go. You wouldn't find a town without both. I live in a town of 30,000 people on the outskirts of Dublin and there's like 6 separate churches I can think of off the top of my head, and all would have a graveyard. As for a private school, private schools in Ireland are different to the US in that the teachers are still paid by the state and not through fees, and so fees are much much lower. Fee-paying private schools get less state funding than public schools. Both public and private schools tend to be Catholic-run and have a Catholic "ethos", and both tend to have ugly uniforms. All of this factors into treatment of LGBT people - in my experience, you get a sense that there's something of an uneasy peace between the staff and the management with regards to LGBT rights. For example Coláiste Eóin, an Irish-language school in Dublin, cancelled a talk about anti-LGBT bullying because of its Catholic ethos and wanting to show "both sides" of the story.

so what about the wildlife and is it mostly city? does it live near by some wilderness? and are ravens and crows common there since i want to avert misplaced wildlife.

edited 3rd Apr '17 9:13:01 AM by ewolf2015

Well, no offense, but you're not quite managing. Something about your speech casts the impression you want to insult me, and I ask of you to refrain from that. It appears that I have offended you in some way, and be assured that it was not my intention. On another note, I apologize. I was not aware that the term 'homosexuals' is no longer commonly used (if it ever even was, for that matter).

Oh, I'm getting it alright. I just don't agree.

You assume that I have no idea what it means to be oppressed and mistreated, and that gives you the right to shut me up? I have no reason to do that for someone whose reasoning I don't agree with (unless you were an admin, of course). "You just don't get it because you're straight" will not fly, good sir. Make me get it if you think there's something I don't understand.

So a white person is by proxy incapable of having a useful perspective on race and racism? I don't believe that's true at all. For instance, surely you, having learned from discussions between people of colour, already posess relevant information on the subject matter. Also, I will choose my role in a discussion myself, thank you very much.

All of these big-picture points (sincere thanks for the input nonetheless) don't excuse one person (aforementioned Tragic Bigot) treating another person like shit despite said person having done nothing to earn their ire. They make the behaviour understandable, but don't excuse it. It makes sense for LGBT people to resent the church, but that doesn't mean they get to go around treating singular Christians who aren't oppressing them like shit. LGBT people shouldn't just treat LGBT Christians with sympathy and understanding, but everybody, just like everyone else should, no matter if their LGBT or not (Please do not take this to mean they should just turn the other cheek to people who treat them like shit, of course). I get the feeling you think it's okay for LGBT people to mistreat all Christians, and I don't agree.

I do apologize if this discussion is derailing the thread, but I believe it to be rather informative in regards to the overall topic myself.

Those criteria don't seem that hard to fulfill, even if I'm not sure it's the right question for the LGBT thread. Concerning the spoiler, well, I can't find much to say. Perhaps I could if you formulated a specific question?

Edit: Now that Vincent Quill elaborated, the whole private school matter appears very relevant to this thread after all.

edited 3rd Apr '17 9:14:32 AM by ilili

Pretty much everything I said there could apply to any town in Ireland so you can really pick anywhere. Wildlife in Ireland doesn't vary all that wildly though, apart from a few obvious things (e.g. lots of pigeons in Dublin city centre). Dublin and its suburbs is very much urbanised but also there's a lot of parks (Phoenix Park being one of the largest urban parks in Europe). You can still make up a town if you want, but I won't be much help with one unless you pick like roughly where the town would be (e.g. which county it would be in).

edited 3rd Apr '17 9:22:01 AM by VincentQuill