A thread for discussing representation and diversity in all kinds of media. This covers creators and casting decisions as well as characters and in-universe discussions.
Historical works and decisions are in-scope as well, not just recent news.
Please put any spoilers behind tags and clearly state which work(s) they apply to.
This week, producer Ross Putnam started a Twitter account called "femscriptintros
", where he puts up examples of how women are introduced in the screenplays he's read. And nearly all of sound like terrible porn or are too concerned with emphasizing said lady is beautiful despite whatever traits she may have. Here's a Take Two podcast made today where he talks about it.
(Edited April 19 2024 to add mod pinned post)
Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:45:51 AM
In my personal experience as an Asian American living in the Northeast US, most of the hate comes from the older generations, and it's more of a really paternalistic "white men are stealing all our wimmenz and white women are golddigging sluts. but in the case that you got one and manage to control her, you're a made man". God forbid getting together with a black person. When it comes to the younger generations though they don't really seem to care. Asian female/white male marriages are extremely common around here and nobody bats an eye.
edited 1st Jul '16 9:35:46 AM by AlleyOop
So, Steven Paul (the producer of Ghost in the Shell) apparently thinks that the film's whitewashing isn't a big deal. Phew, I was worried there for a second. Call of the backlash, everybody, the white guy who's making it says it's okay!
Shaun Lau takes him to school.
belongs to the hurricane
This is the only part I take issue with and which I think we could have done without.
I think making tone deaf statements in a misguided attempt at PR is not the same as being a white supremacist (which I think is a term with more baggage than simply calling someone racist or accusing them of saying racist things), and I don't think it should be something to be thrown around for someone who seems to be just clueless.
But with that small aside, feel free to lambast away.
edited 1st Jul '16 9:50:31 PM by wehrmacht
Yeah, it's not something that should be thrown around lightly, and should be saved for racism with a high level of conscious intentionality.
edited 1st Jul '16 10:22:03 PM by AlleyOop
Yeah, I don't disagree with that. It's not a term that should be used lightly. By all means call Steven Paul racist - hell, I'm doing it right now - but that particular moniker should be saved for the people to whom it unambiguously applies.
I hardly begrudge Lau his frustration, though, so I'm not really going to get on his case over his use of the term.
And everything else he has to say is pretty on the money, as usual.
edited 1st Jul '16 10:47:22 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
The tricky thing with mixed race people is there's often an automatic assumption of privilege, even when said privilege is either minuscule at best or non-existent at worst. A lot of it boils down to the assumption that all mixed people automatically possess some kind of passing privilege, which is kind of insane.
Just for example, things in the entertainment community are absolutely shitty for actors of color in most cases, but it's not like there's some huge explosion of successful white-passing mixed actors who had their whole careers owed to the fact that they look white. There definitely are cases where it plays in their favor but I think in practice it's not as widespread as some people seem to think.
And, of course, there's the issue of non of the races you're from is white. I doubt someone who's say, half black, half Native American, is going to benefit much from privilege.
Thinkpiece on the matter of depictions of Africa in cinema.
This specific issue has some elements of Truth in Television plus Rule of Drama to an extent, but similarly to the issue where "ethnic" literature centered around US minorities as protagonists is always regurgitating the same narratives about the immigrant experience, it's absolutely true and important to realize that it's not the only kinds of stories Africa has to tell.
edited 2nd Jul '16 10:58:14 AM by AlleyOop
Relevant to the topic, at 1:22 to 2:02.
In my opinion, Blood Diamond is a pretty good movie, and it makes sure to have Djimon Hounsou's character equally, perhaps more important than Leo DiCaprio's character. But the Academy missed that as only Leo got nominated for Best Actor, and the film starts to stand out less when, as said before, nearly every modern film set in Africa resembles it.
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Whoops, fixed my statement.
edited 2nd Jul '16 12:18:31 PM by Tuckerscreator
I quite like that movie. Also I'm pretty sure that both Leo and Djimon got nominated that year (all of the sources that I've seen say so anyway).
In regards to the other point, Africa has had a string of really public and quite brutal conflicts over the last half-century or so. Now it's certainly not the only place that's had that problem, but it does seem to get a lot more press-coverage overall than conflicts in other parts of the world. So, for many filmmakers, they probably see it as easier to build "drama" with a film set during a war/conflict.
So, a while back it was announced that Netflix was going to be adapting the 2002 Richard K. Morgan novel Altered Carbon, with the main character of Takeshi Kovacs being played by...Joel Kinnaman.
Much of the anti-whitewashing side of the Internet (that is to say, the good side) collectively flipped its shit, understandably. But once you read a little more, it turns out that the story is actually about a part-Asian man who is technologically inserted into the body of a white guy. It's an actual in-universe case of whitewashing, rendering the casting decision actually pretty reasonable on the surface.
Nonetheless, dissenting opinions remain. This article makes a solid case for why Takeshi should still have been played by an Asian actor.
And did Takeshi's body have to be white? With only eight percent of the top grossing sci-fi films starring a protagonist of color (Keanu Reeves being the only Asian), and only four percent of any TV characters being Asian, did we really need another show featuring a white guy, especially if it came at the expense of a character's Asianness being subsumed under a white veneer?
Because let's be real, Asians are erased pretty frequently when it comes to Hollywood sci-fi adaptations. Firefly, the Star Wars series, and Blade Runner all heavily rely on Asian aesthetics to convey a futuristic feel, and yet there are no Asians in lead roles. Cloud Atlas was about souls reincarnating into any body regardless of race, and yet most of the actors were white, which led them to yellowface when one of the plotlines took place in future Korea. Ex Machina abused and quite literally skinned its Asian robots. The live-action Ghost in the Shell cast Scarlett Johansson as Motoko Kusanagi. And Battle Angel Alita had a shortlist of four actresses, none of whom were Asian, to play the lead character.
Hollywood definitely has a history of erasing Asians in stories that should reasonably have Asians, and choosing to adapt Altered Carbon felt like a clever way for them to continue doing the same ol' but without the criticism of whitewashing.
[...]
The experience of reading Altered Carbon is like playing a first person shooter. You rarely "see" Ryker, other than when the physical body is injured, or when Takeshi walks past a reflective surface. But you're with, and hear, Takeshi at all times. This works in novel form, where it's entirely up to you to decide when and how Takeshi versus Ryker materializes in the story - there are certain instances where Ryker is acknowledged more than Takeshi, or when it becomes mind versus body, like when Ryker's body craves a cigarette but Takeshi doesn't smoke. That nuance and ability to interpret differently does not apply to such a visual medium like TV. Our mind is not able to superimpose Takeshi over Kinnaman's face. Unless they cast an Asian man as a co-lead to act out half the scenes, for all intents and purposes this is just another case of a white man playing an Asian character.
The person they should've cast first to carry the series is Takeshi, with a white actor as a supporting character who we only glimpse at briefly. Takeshi had sleeves before Ryker, and in the other two books in the series, he certainly has sleeves after Ryker. By prioritizing Ryker over Takeshi, and by announcing a big(ish) name white actor first, they've already gone about it backwards. Even if they cast an "original body" Takeshi later, it's already clear they see this as Kinnaman's story.
It's such a terrible missed opportunity, especially in the wake of the Ghost in the Shell casting, as it's yet another example where people are going to attempt to explain away why an Asian consciousness is being housed in a white body, and why Hollywood can't really show said Asian.
It's difficult to outright condemn the casting, because the in-universe lore makes it a very weird situation, but I think she makes a very solid case for why this both misses the point of the narrative and perpetuates the same old racist trends that have been plaguing Hollywood for decades.
Even going beyond the points she raises there, it's also worth noting that here they choose to remain "true and faithful" to the source material, whereas with something like Ghost in the Shell, it's immediately "oh, we're making it an international story (that's right, the Japanese story based on Japanese culture set in Japan about Japanese people who never leave Japan is an "international story"), she's a robot, she could look like anyone, it's a loose adaptation, yadda yadda yadda." Hollywood is very...shall we say selective about when to stick to the source material?
Oh, and guess who's apparently going to be playing the mother of Scarlett Johansson's character in Ghost in the Shell? Kaori Momoi. Yeah.
edited 2nd Jul '16 6:29:24 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
?????
This has crossed the line in my mind now from "maybe it can still be good plot-wise despite the whitewashing" to "wow, now they really don't care". But inevitably they might take the wrong lesson of "now they're complaining that a Japanese woman is in it! Internet cannot be pleased!"
RE: Altered Carbon. I'm not familiar with the series, so it's helpful that the article goes in depth into to explain why the casting isn't true to the canon, despite the claims otherwise.
Right, it's like there's an inherent assumption that characters from backgrounds like that can only ever be in stories if their background is specifically about that. I can't remember what show it was, but there was some discussion about why there weren't any non-white characters in the cast, and the creator made some comment that they don't like doing message stories or "issue of the week" episodes.
While I can see not wanting your show to be political, the problem is that it implies that minority characters HAVE to be mouthpieces for stories about the issues in question, and not just ya know, actual characters like the white people.
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I predict they'll go the "Kusanagi was originally Asian, but then she got put into a white body with technology!" route. Apparently Hollywood really has a thing for Asian people in white bodies.
I suppose they already have a thing for white people doing Asian things, so this is really just the next natural step of progression.
Yeah. Stories that are specifically about the issues faced by certain communities or groups are certainly important, but they shouldn't be the only stories about those groups that are available. We also need characters that basically just happen to be nonwhite, or LGBTQIA, or disabled, or what have you, because it helps normalize those traits in the public perception. And members of those groups get pretty tired of seeing themselves constantly defined solely by those few traits in media.
Like, I think that movies that properly depict the horrors of American slavery are still vitally important, lest anyone forget what we were doing not that long ago. But when those seem to be the only mainstream movies about black people that anyone cares about, we've got a problem. Black people need to be seen as more than just "those people we used to enslave."
I love American Born Chinese, which is all about the immigrant/Asian-American experience. But it's also refreshing to be able to pick up an issue of, say, Silk (she got better in her solo series, I swear), and see a straightforward superhero that just happens to also be Korean-American.
That's not to say that there's no middle ground. For example, Glenn in The Walking Dead is very much an ordinary member of the group, never being defined by his race or ethnicity, but there are occasional subtly racial moments that remind you of the dynamics at play - such as the way the white members of the group treated him like a servant for a great deal of Season 2, or less subtly, his early interactions with Daryl and Merle ("You got some balls for a Chinaman"). My favorites tend to be the characters that are influenced by their identity, but are never actually defined by it.
('Course, Hollywood will whitewash them all alike. Doesn't matter one whit to them.)
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
belongs to the hurricane
This isn't that dumb in isolation and taking the context of the original franchise into account, since from what I understand transhumanism and the ability to assume different identities through cyborg bodies is one of the most important parts of the Git S mythos.
...the problem being of course that conveniently it's a white woman's body, as it is most of the time regardless of whether it makes sense or not. As you've said they'll latch onto any excuse not to change anything.
-
edited 2nd Jul '16 9:56:53 PM by wehrmacht
I saw that Altered Carbon article about a week ago or so- I think another essay on that site was linked to. Quite interesting and makes me want to read the books, which I bought at a sale a while back but haven't read.
I'm surprised the article doesn't make a reference to Quantum Leap (unless I missed it), because it seems like that is what they are suggesting should have done- have an actor of Japanese ancestry as Kovacs and only show his Caucasian "skin" when he looks in the mirror and such. Which is actually a pretty clever idea and reminds me a bit of Film The Lady In The Lake and its unusual camera technique.
Because instead, the show cast a major Caucassian actor, and the writer takes that to mean (probably correctly) that Kovacs' actual/preferred body won't be seen much or at all.
I would kind of expect that Kovacs' other body might be seen in flashbacks, but I'm wondering what will happen in future seasons, if there are any, because my impression from the article is that Kovacs uses more than one body.
belongs to the hurricane
Not to detract from the current conversation about asian whitewashing at all (by all means continue to discuss it since we can talk about multiple things at once), but I was browsing the internet and found a few links about representation of latin-americans in hollywood (given that I am mixed-race latin american this is sort of relevant to me). They're like 1 or 2 years old all-around but if they're still accurate the situation is actually even worse than I thought.
As in, there was apparently more latino representation decades ago around the 50's and a lot of it has dried up since. This is happening while latin-american demographic is getting bigger and bigger, and their opportunities are shrinking.
The first link cites a study that talks about some well-known but sort of problematic trends in latino representation over the years, a big one being that latino women tend to be sexualized quite often (Spicy Latina is a pretty well-documented trope), but it also points out that is a trend with latino men as well.
As with so many things, it wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the trend. In a vacuum, it would be theoretically acceptable. But with the long history of PoC roles being given to white actors on the thinnest of excuses, it comes off as just that - a shoddy excuse given in an attempt to retroactively justify whitewashing. Add in Paul's insistence that it's an "international story" (despite general consensus being that it's anything but), and the fact that in Hollywood, "international story" always means "white main characters, maybe with some PoC in supporting roles if we can be bothered," and you've got a movie that genuinely doesn't seem to give a shit.
And that's not even getting into their "digital yellowface" experiments, where they tried to use VFX to make white actors look Asian. We seem to be reaching the point where casting actors of color is literally the absolute last resort.
This is the guy who's going to be producing Lone Wolf and Cub. Can't wait to see what his definition of "essentially Japanese" is. As was predicted here previously, it almost certainly means "a bunch of white people acting Japanese."
Yeah, having an actual part-Asian actor play Kovacs and only showing him as white in mirrors or video footage or whatever definitely seems like it would have been the way to go. Not only would it downplay the more...uncomfortable aspects presented by the concept, it would actually hammer home the sense of disconnect he feels every day. He's still Asian - it's just that nobody else sees him that way.
And it's been done before. Even beyond the examples you gave (neither of which I'm familiar with, unfortunately), Stargate used the same technique on repeated occasions. One of the main methods of interstellar communication there was a device that would literally put on person's mind in another person's body, regardless of the distance between the two, which they could use to coordinate with people on distant planets. Whenever one character was "piloting" another character's body, they were always shown onscreen as being played by the "pilot" actor rather than the "host" one. The host body was only shown in mirrors and recordings and whatnot. So there's plenty of precedent.
So yeah. It feels like doing that would have been the ideal method, both for social/political reasons, and for the purposes of reinforcing the story's themes. But since this is the Western entertainment industry we're talking about, I feel pretty confident saying they won't do anything of the sort. Especially since they've made a big announcement out of Kinnaman's casting (referring to him as the star of the series), but as far as I know we haven't heard hide nor hair of any Asian actors being hired for the part.
It's garbage. Latinx people are the fastest-growing demographic in the States, and one of the groups that tends to suffer the most from xenophobia and casual racism (hi Trump), yet they're the ones who have the least representation in media. And even when they are allowed to be present, they're usually relegated to "scary gangster" (usually with Mexican cartel connections), or occasionally "hypersexualized Spicy Latina."
I mean, let me try to think here, how many Latinix superheroes can I name? There's Jaime Reyes, Miss America Chavez (hey, LGBT woman of color superhero!), and...that's pretty much all I can think of.
edited 2nd Jul '16 10:15:45 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
belongs to the hurricane
There's also Robbie Reyes, the new Ghost Rider, but I can't think of any others.
I actually rather like Jaime, I hope someday he gets a movie.
There's also White Tiger, Arana, Mas y Menos, Kyle Rayner post-retcon, Darwin (whose death in First Class was prime bullshit), Sam Alexander Nova, and Rictor.
I'll have to find it again, but I recall a previous poll here indicated that Latino-Americans buy 20 percent to 25 percent of all Hollywood's tickets. Which makes the under-representing even more insane.
edited 2nd Jul '16 11:41:17 PM by Tuckerscreator
There is also Elena Rodriguez, a.k.a Yo-Yo, currently seen in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Colombian in the show, Puerto Rican in the comics.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Screaming Into The Void
There's also Cybersix, who's an Argentinian superhero, but really obscure (and awesome).
Related to whitewashing conversation, I do remember some controversy when Argo came out, because it had Ben Affleck play real-life CIA agent Tony Mendez. I think it's a bit of a different situation, because in this case Mendez has gone on the record saying he approves of the casting choice, but it still seems a bit questionable to me.
(it's also received some criticism here in Canada, because it pretends that we barely played a role in the rescue depicted in the movie, which is mostly unrelated to the topic of this thread, but is a good example of how important people in Hollywood want the films they make to be all about them)
What gets me is the monetary benefit. Every fucking time it gets me, because anytime someone makes something that appeals even slightly to a female demographic, or to a Latino, or black, or Asian demographic, and it sells big, everyone's scratching their heads wondering why. Well shucks, who knew that appealing to an otherwise completely ignored demographic in a way that puts in more effort than just "oh well we'll just put one in there so that they'll shut up about it" would make money? I mean for fuck's sake even the rom com industry gets this by now, and yet somehow the message isn't clear enough.
What DOES bother me though is a focus on representation as a statistic, on both sides of the fence. Because that results in situations where people will throw in the token minority character as if it's checking off a checklist. And you have to be black enough, or Asian enough so that the audience notices, or else it doesn't count. That sort of pedantic behavior does nothing for anyone, and really just encourages the outrage based echo chambers that tell executives that these complaints aren't that important.
And it also causes this idea that if you're diverse, you're "special", and should be treated as such. You have to work the narrative around their identity, for better or for worse. Which incidentally reduces the character down to just the base identifiable traits (race, gender, sexuality, etc.). Which further pushes the "generic straight white male lead", because that's the only character that's considered unoffensive enough to put in any situation without facing any sort of backlash from any group, at least not any backlash due to cause any real financial loss. What's one more movie with a white guy lead in an ocean of white guy leads?
Edit: @ Academy: I'm happy with many members in the list with a few notable exception that I think would easily falls to tokenism and favoritism:
edited 1st Jul '16 9:46:59 AM by shatterstar