Unclear Description: Magnificent Seven Samurai

I apologize if this belongs more in trope-talk, but I do think that this is definitely a case where the trope definition is unclear or ambiguous. To wit, reading the definition of Magnificent Seven Samurai, it is not clear whether it is describing a particular kind of ensemble, or a particular plot. Is it describing a trope wherein seven heroes fit seven particular roles, or in which a group of heroes helps protect a group of peaceful villagers? Or is it both? Would a work where there are six or eight heroes, or where the heroes do not fit neatly into the seven roles, qualify? Or would a work where the heroes never train the peaceful villagers qualify? Looking at the examples, some, like ¡Three Amigos!!, clearly fit the plot but not the number or roles. Same with Galaxy Quest, where there are six heroes. If the trope is really about the ensemble, presumably neither would really fit. If the trope is about the plot, both would. If the trope is about both, then maybe Galaxy Quest comes in because it is only one shy, but Three Amigos does not? The description is unclear, because it seems to talk about both elements, without making it clear which is necessary.

edited 10th Aug '15 9:05:30 AM by Oddstar6

It really doesn't help that there are so many ZC Es listed on the page that it's hard to tell what the examples have in common.

That's a good point. I have gone through and commented out as many zero-context examples as I could find.

If it helps, there was a Trope Talk discussion on the meaning of this page 2 years ago (along with some other stuff): https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13724455930A46572700

edited 10th Aug '15 1:05:20 PM by Zyffyr

A quick read seems to indicate that it wants to be a description of a stock plot that uses a particular type of ensemble. I'm wondering if there should be a separate trope for the ensemble itself.

edited 10th Aug '15 1:35:01 PM by lee4hmz

Lee4hmz, that seems to me to be a pretty good assessment of the problem. I think splitting it into two tropes might be the best solution. I just wonder whether we don't already have a trope for the plot aspect: Training the Peaceful Villagers. Even if you think that the plot described includes more than that, the fact is that many of the examples only include part of the plot description. I refer again to Galaxy Quest, where for example, the team does not stand off the first attack; they run away to repair the ship and regroup. The team also never abandons the Thermians. I'm sure there are other examples that do not really fit the described plot all that well. Again, what seems to be the key part of the plot is Training the Peaceful Villagers, and we already have that trope.

We need a wick check, methinks.

I'll try to do one when I have the time.

No Wick Check, ~Oddstar6?

I've read the examples before, and I feel that Training the Peaceful Villagers is pretty sufficient for the trope in my mind. The specific ensemble doesn't seem to occur often enough to be a convention, just an Homage to the original story.

I'd also accept revising the current page to have a few more plot details (such as the Villagers asking The Heroes to help them) and leaving it a subtrope of Training the Peaceful Villagers.

The current plot/ensemble hybrid is unacceptable.

First I was too busy, and then I was too lazy (I'm not sure that that's an appropriate use of the perfect tense). I'm sure your proposal is fine.

edited 31st Dec '15 7:28:41 PM by Oddstar6

Locking as part of New Years Purge.