Really a Useful Note: No Koreans In Japan

Genuinely interesting article, but I don't think it's really a trope per se. The description is a quick and dirty summary of Koreans in Japan, their numbers and a bit of their history. Interesting, useful for someone writing a work set in Japan, but not a trope.

Additionally, I don't get why it's listed as "No Koreans In Japan," then listing exceptions. Wouldn't it make more sense to be "Koreans In Japan" and include examples? The way it's titled makes it seem like there's a major Korean population and their lack of inclusion in a work would be notable, but they number less than 1% of the population. That's a relatively inconsequential number.

Agreed. The example list looks like a list of all Korean characters in Japanese media. I'd say that for it to be a trope it should go about "Korean characters in Japanese media are often shown in these common or stereotypical ways".

The title is really bad. It sounds like complaining about racism, except for a 1% population the listed examples show a pretty good representation. I agree with changing it to Koreans In Japan, and moving to Useful Notes.

The title is alright imo, it is seriously a trope, they have gone so far as to delete Korea off maps◊ in Kantai Collection.

The fact that a Korean even appears in a work is a big deal and when one appears Koreans complain about it massively no matter who it is, to the point of getting a series actually removed off TV. Which is funny because how much of say Anime is outsourced to South Korea.

Chinese characters are perfectly fine though.

Exceptions to the rule are fine as examples imo as just listing every series who actually follows that rule is stupid.

edited 7th Apr '15 10:27:08 AM by Memers

^ The problem I see with this, is that it seems to be dangerously close to "complaining about not enough Koreans in Japanese works". A work shouldn't be expected to have a Korean character, after all. The example you mentioned is a deliberate omission, so it's quite different than just a work that happens to feature no Koreans.

Rereading the examples, it seems this page actually contains 4 parts:

• Useful Notes about the Korean minority in Japan, and the discrimination they face in real life. All the real life examples belong there.
• A possible trope about deliberate omission of Koreans/Korea in Japanese media, like in the example you mentioned, or the Super Formation Soccer 94 example. (Does this trope have enough examples, though?)
• A trope about how many Korean characters in Japanese media tend to be depicted as evil/villains or weak losers. There seem to be enough examples of this, ranging from the pretty racist manga in the first example to small things like King Koopa.
• Mentions of just any non-stereotypical Korean characters from Japanese media, which doesn't seem to be a trope, and only disproves the original page's point.

edited 7th Apr '15 11:02:23 AM by Rjinswand

In the video game section at least, a lot of the examples are "this is a Japanese game. There are Koreans" in works that aren't even set in Japan.

Not a trope. It would be OK to make it a Useful Notes page about Koreans in Japanese media.

BB Buuuuump

Any time you see "only exceptions should be listed", it's a sign of a Trope in Aggregate.

Also, as described, this could be considered the Japanese Equivalent of a Race Trope. Which one, I'm not sure.

edited 29th Jun '15 4:45:10 PM by DonaldthePotholer

Will repeat my post from 2 1/2 months ago—yes, not a trope, please make a Useful Note, or just cut.

It very much is a race trope, it's also a country feud, immigration trope and a left over from the multiple invasions of Korea by Japan.

The Korean version would be No Japanese Anything In Korea. You can not picture the flag, a samurai or any kind of imagery or anything.

While Japan just treats korea as it doesn't exist or doesn't matter, IE they remove Korea off maps in Kantai Collection never have anyone from there etc. while the Chinese Waitress is a big thing in Japanese media and Romance Of The Three Kingdoms is one of their biggest sellers in Japan.

edited 29th Jun '15 11:20:54 PM by Memers

Well, no, refusing to acknowledge the existence of Korea is not a Race Trope or any other kind of trope. It's a Useful Note.

It's not clear to me why we are talking about "complaining" here. The trope does not contain any complaining. Merely pointing out something is different than reality is not "complaining".

Anyhoo, I agree that this is a Trope in Aggregate.

Following the own description, the Koreans are less than 1% of the population of the Japan in reality and are "indistinguishable from other Japanese people, including to their friends and neighbors in Japan."

edited 30th Jun '15 1:24:31 AM by MagBas

I'm not quite sure how a "trope" called No Koreans In Japan can state that Koreans are never mentioned in Japanese media, then proceed to list several dozen examples of Koreans being mentioned in Japanese media.

Furthermore, why should Japanese media have a lot of mentions of Koreans when they are less than 1% of the population, as noted in the intro? According to The Other Wiki 1.5% of Americans are Norwegian by ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#Analysis_by_2010_Federal_Population_Census

Do we need a trope called No Norwegians In America? And if so should we list, I dunno, Fargo as an aversion?

Obviously there is bad blood between Japan and both Koreas dating back at least as far as 1910, and that would probably be worthy of a trope of some sort. But this one is a mess. This trope shouldn't be made a Useful Note, it should be cut, and someone should start a YKTTW about negative portrayals of Koreans in Japanese media.

No, this is more like there are 'no Canadians on American TV' and such. Russians, Chinese and pretty much everyone else around Japan are fair game however not Koreans, Which is funny since S. Korea actually makes the animation in most of the anime on Japanese TV.

There are very few actual non-obscure works that feature one and those that do are works that are intended for a Worldwide release, often there will be a protest from S Korea anyway for any character sometimes getting it pulled off TV.

The list we have on there itself are pretty much obscure a hell stuff, Unfortunate Implications, or the character got removed or changed in the anime. Only 6 of those examples actually got an anime and 2 of which were Unfortunate Implications and one got removed off TV while running.

On the video game side its almost strictly confined to Fighting Games as those are intended for a worldwide release and are popular in Korea which really are not part of the spirit of the trope itself.

edited 30th Jun '15 2:27:30 AM by Memers

At this point, I think moving this to UsefulNotes.Koreans In Japan and creating a trope about how Koreans and Japanese hate each other would be in order. Because the enmity between the countries could be a trope, but it's one that A: goes both ways and B: Doesn't really jive with the description or name.

A Trope in Aggregate is a common occurrence. What exactly is the common occurrence here?

• "Most Japanese works don't feature Korean characters"? That's not tropeable, because there's no reason for most Japanese works to feature them. It doesn't look like a noticeable absence (aside from those examples where they've been intentionally omitted). I'm sure there's more Japanese works featuring Koreans than e.g. Russian works featuring Koreans.
• "Some Japanese works intentionally omit or censor Korea/Koreans"? That looks like a trope, however I don't think it's common enough to be a Trope in Aggregate, maybe just a normal trope.

Also, is this about Japanese portrayals of: S.Korea and its Korean residents, or Japan's own residents of Korean descent? The page kind of lumps them together.

1. Move the page to Useful Notes. Real Life examples, and also examples of intentional omission and censorship in Japanese media would also go there.
2. Maybe also create a national stereotype trope out of Japanese stereotypical portrayal of Koreans as "weak" and "evil".

edited 30th Jun '15 2:35:17 PM by Rjinswand

Bump.

Like I said, I agree there's a Useful Note here (about the Korean population of Japan), and a potential other trope (about Japanese-Korean relations leading to works in one country ignoring the other's existence/unflattering portrayals of them).

But as-is, it's a mishmash of a few ideas masquerading as a trope, and inexplicably built around exceptions rather than examples.

Crowner here

edited 3rd Sep '15 12:44:04 PM by Larkmarn

There is definitely a trope struggling to get out. If there is good evidence that publishers avoid the topic (rather than fail to bring it up), that would be worth noting, though as trivia rather than a trope. Memers, if I understand well you say that Koreans are sensitive about any representation in Japanese media, not simply the bad ones; why is this, and what are the specific implications you mention?

Cultural assimilation without citizen rights is a powerful topic, but not an obvious trope. We have a supertrope, Pass Fail (despite the name, the examples are all about passing as another group). How the group is portrayed may be worth talking about, but I can't think of how right now.

As it is, the low number of examples is telling, but only if you trust the wiki to be exhaustive.

Well in S Korea it is any kind of Japanese imagery like the rising sun, samurai, etc. are banned and not just works from Japan too. Even stuff like BigHero6 gets controversy and is edited.. Japanese actors appearing in movies will have movie posters edited to remove them. Until recently most Japanese shows were banned on Korean TV even some anime, which is funny since most anime is made in Korea.

And really the examples are 'every Korean to appear in anime' it is a god damn small list that is almost completely taken over by fighting games which are multinational and popular in Korea.

edited 3rd Sep '15 6:03:38 PM by Memers

And really the examples are 'every Korean to appear in anime' it is a god damn small list that is almost completely taken over by fighting games which are multinational and popular in Korea.

You keep saying that, but it just isn't that... true.

edited 4th Sep '15 6:03:37 AM by Larkmarn

Looking over the Real Life section, there are just a bunch of Japanese people who happen to be Korean, which isn't really the trope (and if that actually is it, it should be cut anyway). Is that something that's going to be taken care of here, or should I just bring it to the Real Life Maintenance thread as usual?

edited 4th Sep '15 6:21:39 AM by AnotherDuck

The list is almost completely made up by villains and obscure non-mainstream manga, how many of those actually got an anime, not racist, or didn't have the character cut out? My count is 8.

None of the other sections have more than 4 entries aside from video games which is almost all fighting games with worldwide releases including Korea.

Also the Korean population in Japan is 600k and the black population is non-existent yet even with all those obscure entries there are still a ton more black guys in anime.

edited 4th Sep '15 10:52:21 AM by Memers

The question is, what to do with this page.

I've stated my suggestion earlier: Move the page (along with examples of censorship) to Useful Notes, and maybe also create a trope for Japanese stereotypes of Koreans as "evil"/"weak".

What are other suggestions?

How about an article going over Japan's portrayal of foreigners in fiction?

I think Memers has a point, that even at 1%, Koreans are underrepresented compared to other nationals who do not have the historic entanglement. I can name characters in the medium from Britain, France, the States, Italy, Germany and Russia, who are usually played for exotic appeal, fish-out-of-water jokes or silly stereotypes (and often act fully Japanese otherwise) but only one minor role with a Korean name.

I'm sure there's enough here to make an article, but I don't know how to structure it.