How important is formal training in most occupations?

Language is kinda different since, because it is such a necesary thing, the best thing you can do to learn a language is to need to learn that language as fast as possible. I learned english because...videogames were and are a very important part of my life given how few playmates I had. I needed to learn the language.

I remember a case I heard once. it was the following. The parents were chinese. The school was only-english, and the country was costa rica. The parents spoke to him only in chinese, the teachers spoke to him only in english. What language did the kid master first? Spanish. Why? It was the language his playmates spoke, and if he did not speak spanish, then he did not get to play.

Language is "easy" to learn, or rather, very possible to learn because it can often be made into a sink or swim situation and we humans tend to swim there

Yeah, but some formal training will help with that lest you get some really awful habits. Like reading in that language. I am completely illiterate in Irish despite that being my first language because my parents gave English the precedence.

Very, very few of my family actually speak Irish anymore, because we're Americans now and Americans speak English.

So if my son were to learn, then he would probably need formal training as I have studied so many other languages I would be a horrible instructor. I already put German vowel sounds on my Spanish.

Ultimately it depends on how well you want to learn it. If you want to just communicate over the internet in a way the other person somewhat understands - that's easily achievable on your own. You want to produce speech less like that of a monkey high on 17 different drugs at once? That's more complex. And so on and so on.

Getting rid of an accent, for example, is a thing that definetly demands formal training. As I have so little of it, I still speak like a Hollywood villain because of that.

I bet you sound awesome.

" I learned english because...videogames were and are a very important part of my life given how few playmates I had. I needed to learn the language."

Friend!

On the topic of Speaking Foreign languages... my dad said once that I really need to work on how I pronounce some words, but once I went to Robocup and the people there (Most of which spoke only English) were able to understand me pretty well.

People formally trained in a foreign language tend to end up more grammatically proficient in it than native speakers, because they're taught all the rigid rules everyone else promptly ignores

edited 2nd Mar '15 10:34:41 AM by Pykrete

...◊

Damn germans being proficient at languages◊

I can see how formal training can help in language but then I didn't know any of the 'rules' of any language.

Pykrete has very good point. I used to participate in a Usenet group about the English language, and advanced ESL speakers/writers were quite easy to pick out from those who learned it as their mother tongue: they were far more grammatically precise, sometimes to the point of sound stilted or awkward because t hey were following all the rules that those if us who learned it mostly by osmosis cheerfully ignored, because we'd learned the rule long after we'd learned how the language is actually used.

Just threadhopping right now, but when did I ever suggest otherwise? Clearly you're an outlier and not a typical case, and this should really go without saying.

Also, telltale signs of language proficiency include but are not limited to how and if the speaker can demonstrate the dative and prepositional phrases. Free-range grammars like that seen in German and Chinese can be difficult for both native speakers and secondary learners to remember, but it's often not something you're going to pick up naturally just from reading books or going to chat rooms by yourself.

Being able to switch between the indicative and subjunctive is a major milestone for secondary Spanish learners, for example, and I have yet to encounter a self-declared "self-taught" Spanish speaker who can use the two moods competently, let alone know what the difference between the two is. And yes, there's probably some autodidactic person out there who can do it, but it's certainly not common.

edited 2nd Mar '15 1:52:47 PM by Aprilla

Learning Japanese for videogames and porn manga does odd things to your vocabulary.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:42:26 PM by nightwyrm_zero

That leads to another question kind of want to ask, how do we adapt our training into the real world? I know technology changes all the time but how do we adapt that into the ever changing world that we live in?

You just do. Take what you need, adjust that does not match reality, keep with the changes, and keep your notes.

Do you have an example of what you mean? I am not sure I wholly understand the question

What I mean is how in some markets is how technology changes constantly and how you have to adapt to new tech despite your formal training in previous technology.

You can attend courses that educate formally on that new language that are not necesarily entire careers.

You can be given the basics on how to program on Python without having to redo your whole programming career. programming careers tend to give the basics, teach a few languages and send you on your way but keeping actualized does not necesitate having to roll again at a career, just at that subject.

Same can be said for say, medical procedures. Doctors can learn a new surgical procedure/instrument without having to course medicine all over again

This isn't hard. If you have a licence to do your job, meaning you are legally required to meet certain regulations to do your job, you have mandatory training from insurance agents and real estate agents to doctors and teachers.

Even if you arent required, like a sales manager, it is an unwritten rule that you take the initiative and stay abreast of the latest developments on your own so you can do your job better.

Plus, many people enjoy like their work and keep up with the new info anyway.

Or any medical-related role, even volunteers. Additionally, if someone is a member of a Professional Association, they can offer training courses, lectures, conferences and other meetings — and of course, there are journals and magazines covering just about every industry.

Actually, programming majors do even better. Like I said earlier, you only learn specific languages as the intro. After that, you learn design principles, architecture, and common data-structuring characteristics of programming languages that apply to all (or at least the overwhelming majority) of them. Each class will usually pick one or two languages that exemplify the curriculum, but the aim is for more general patterns. We're specifically taught to be as versatile and adaptable as possible, because platforms and languages emerge constantly.

Back when the economy was sane and employers couldn't afford to demand that everyone coming in already know absolutely everything they want up to and including in-house homebrew tools (I have actually seen this, and it's incredibly stupid), your employer would pay for crash courses in new stuff like that.

edited 3rd Mar '15 6:09:28 PM by Pykrete

Now that you point it out Pykrete, you are right, I did word that poorly and yours is far more appropriate. To try and rephrase it, from my understanding, learning to program by yourself is learning one programming language. Programming courses in universities and such will actually teach you how to learn new languages and how to structure coding to market standards.

Sounds a bit weird but as I understand it, they teach you how to learn and how to do an understndable coding format.

I jsut made it sound as if they just thaught you a few languages, pat you in the shoulder and send you on your way.

College also teaches more than just subject matter. It teaches you leadership, critical thinking, research skills, and long term planning. You get the life skills needed to maintain your own education and sort out the crap from the quality.

I know formal instruction is important but how do you tell apart the 'good' instruction from the 'bad' instruction?

Anything along the lines of, "You don't need to pay attention to these rules" is bad instruction. Always learn the rules, because if you don't know what they are and how to follow them, it will bite you in the ass at some point.

So you need to know the rules? Before I tried some things I had no idea that there any rules to speak of. I guess there is a reason why some people hate Music Theory.