The Islamophobia Thread

In one of my books for a history class, one of the authors brought up an interesting point. When Muslim terrorists commit a crime, Muslims are demanded to criticize it. When something happens in the name of Christianity, or Judaism, your average Christian and Jew is not expected to denounce terrorism - it is seen as obvious that most of them do not support it.

When a minority group does something horrible, people from that group are expected to stand up and denounce it; they are hounded as supporters otherwise. You can see something similar for the Black Lives Matter movement, particularly after the murder of those police officers. But again; people rarely do the same for the dominate group.

edited 21st Feb '15 8:49:15 AM by SilentColossus

There have been, in any case, innumerable denunciations of terrorism by mainstream Islamic organizations and community leaders, which seldom get publicized.

@Quag15: Olá, fellow Lusitanian Thank you for posting that article, it was an interesting read (for non-Portuguese speakers, it was essentially a collection of opinions from Muslims living in Portugal).

This is something that has been on my mind for a while, now. I've read comments online from Swedes, Dutch, and other Europeans about how Muslim immigration is "a problem for Europe", and it all sounded...unpleasant, to say the least. I can't imagine the same kind of comment coming from a Portuguese person, not even on the worst online platforms. And yet, we do have a Muslim community.

I'd say part of it is ignorance. A lot of people associate Muslims with stereotypes, and since they don't see those caricatures around, they just assume they've never met a Muslim (for example, my sister used to think every Muslim looked just like Sayid from Lost, who is played by an actor of Indian descent). Then they do meet someone who proves the stereotypes wrong one way or the other, and they only realise they're Muslim in the middle of a conversation (said sister ended up meeting a Moroccan guy with the same skin colour as her). I've seen this happen a few times.

Another factor is that Portugal tends to be a welcoming place for foreigners in general, and Muslims are foreigners like any other.

Finally, I personally find that Portuguese culture meshes well with that of Muslim countries. We have mosques, but they blend in with the rest of the architecture (this past summer, I've seen two rehabilitated buildings that used to be mosques: a cathedral and a supermarket, nowadays), and when I was living in Germany, I found it easier to get along with Iranians and Turks than with the Germans themselves (and I met a professor at my university that thought the same thing when living in Sweden). I understand that this might seem superficial and anecdotal, though.

Anyway, just my two cents on how things are in my country. The growing Islamophobia in Europe is worrisome.

Olá, compatriota! Saudações e bem-vindo a estes fórums (a não ser que já estivesses estado cá).

Agreed. At best (worst?), one can only find nasty comments on FB from a very few folks, and usually only in the aftermath of attacks, as an emotional response (e.g. post-Charlie Hebdo reactions).

Indeed. I tend to find more ignorance on British and Northern European websites' comments than in the Portuguese counterparts.

I've also been noticing that we've been getting along with Iranians quite well. For example, my older brother's former boss was an Iranian ex-pat living between London and Prague and they got along well (and, every now and then, talk a bit ocasionally). And diplomatic and business relations between Portugal and Iran have been improving (but that's another topic).

I wonder if it's because we, the Portuguese, have generally managed to adapt to different situations and constant migrations. That might help explain why we tend to get friendly with the vast majority of foreigners, since we've been in the same situation as them, in a certain way.

Your testimony is not superficial and is quite worth it. Obrigado e boa sorte, meu caro.

edited 21st Feb '15 1:45:40 PM by Quag15

"Much obliged and good luck, my dear"? Damn, o português é uma língua muito efusiva...

"Thank you and good luck, my fellow." (not sure if 'fellow' is the better word, but let's keep it for now). 'Dear' would be the case if I had said 'Cara' (female form) or if I was addresing someone in a Camp way. It's not as effusive^note (is this the right word in English?) as you might think (your second sentence is perfect/correct, the word 'Damn' aside, obviously), once you read the page on our language.

edited 21st Feb '15 2:45:13 PM by Quag15

Muito obrigado I've been a lurker for some time, but only decided to start posting relatively recently. I like to learn about different cultures, and Islamophobia is a subject that has been on my mind for quite some time, so I did feel like I had to share something, even if small.

I don't want to go too much off-topic, but I do agree when you say it's our history of emigrations that makes us more receptive to foreign cultures. I think everybody has had contact with someone who had to be an immigrant for a time.

edited 21st Feb '15 3:49:30 PM by JonnasN

As a proud member of the nation y'all colonized BEM-VINDO AO INFERNO RAPAZ / Seja bem-vindo a este maravilhoso lugar que chamamos de lar. E Paraíso. E inferno. E Purgatório. E...

From what you've been saying, Portugal might be an interesting case study when it comes to Islam and Islamic terrorism in Europe.

I've done some digging and, besides public statements condemnding ISIS and some standard anti-terrorism laws, I found something about Portuguese Jihadists (though I don't know how reputable this is), which is quite interesting. According to the article, even the police quipped that their beef is with the terrorists, not with the Muslims.

Can any of you confirm this or shed some more detail on this news?

Limbo? Já não existe.

I'd say that the police is, for the most part, fairly decent when it comes to communities (although there has been some trouble recently with the black community of Cova da Moura, due to some police agents being racist far-rightards, but that's another topic).

The most important bit, I think, is the fact these Portuguese and Portuguese-descendant jihadists (the latter are in the majority, with most of them having been born in France and the UK) are to be found in the recruitment and propaganda departments, so, it also goes to show that we do not tend to be violent nowadays, for the most part.

I know that one of the jihadists used to be a black footballer who probably failed at some point during his career, so I wonder if plenty of jihadists have previously suffered from economical troubles, social/racial discrimination, and said issues push them towards radicalism. So I think that, to fight Islamophobia, you need not only to fight ignorance, but also to improve the economy and the wealth distribution or, at least, provide better wages.

The website is fairly reliable (and it's particularly useful for immigrants and ex-pats), even if the text formatting is a bit shoddy.

edited 22nd Feb '15 7:25:37 AM by Quag15

Tanta lusofonia Obrigado pela recepção!

I've seen a few news like that on TV, and it is pretty much as Quad said.

I will add, I don't think economic issues are the cause of discrimination problems in society, it's just the whole "blame-seeking" mentality that pushes people into revealing any prejudice that was already there.

The source of the prejudice was always a social issue, economic woes are just a catalyst in making those issues clearer.

edited 22nd Feb '15 4:57:14 PM by JonnasN

You also need to add in (IMO) that some have experienced hardships in their lives that they get easily persuaded to join in. IIRC, this was the case for some jihadi wannabes arrested in Japan.

I would agree that economic hard times exacerbate racist feelings that were always there, while good times allow people to let them go (temporarily). But if the fault line are there, more money wont make them go away.

Austria is trying to restrict foreign financing of imams and mosques in the country. Austrian Muslims have given their input on it. Reason was to prevent political influences made on the community. This was announced on BBC via news podcast.

I don't know if some will feel threatened.

edited 25th Feb '15 7:53:36 PM by Ominae

There were immediate complaints that Islam is being treated differently than other religions. Guess any billionaire can build a church in Vienna.

Ominae, can you share a link about it?

This just came in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/11435388/Austria-passes-controversial-reforms-to-Islam-law-banning-foreign-funding.html

The article frames it more as a case of nationalism(/xenophobia?) than Islamophobia per se. It restricts foreign influence, but also guaranties more rights for Austrian Muslims. Interesting.

I am curious about double standard, though. Apparently Muslim organizations need to "demonstrate a positive approach towards society and the state" which, depending o how exactly they define that, isn't all that unreasonable. But do other religions need to have similar standards? And if they do, are they as strictly enforced? Sometimes a law is fine on paper but not on practice, after all. This sound the kind of thing that could be abused to pick on Muslim organizations why turning a blind eye on the Catholic Church.

I don't even think it's a matter of finding an 'acceptable racism'. It's just regular old racism.

One could easily, easily criticise Islam as an ideology, Islam as a political motivation and ideological excuse for violent backlash against such heinous actions as cartooning and short skirts... No one ever does, though. After something like this Charlie incident happens, people criticise the 'immigrant invasion', they criticise the 'lack of integration'... They don't criticise Islam, though. They criticise Muslims.

It's framed as a nationalistic/xenophobic issue because that's exactly what it is. 'Islamophobia' in the sense of 'fear of Islam as a faith' could easily be regarded as entirely valid. Ideologically-speaking, Islam is essentially 'Christendom except moreso'.

In western Europe, America, etc, people avoid criticising Islam for that very reason. If you ask, everyone's okay with some theoretical 'peaceful, moderate Muslim'... but god forbid (pun intended) that an actual peaceful Muslim live in their neighbourhood after some news story happens.

It goes beyond a 'not in my backyard' situation and straight into shades of 'ethnic Judaism' — of course people respect the idea of Islam as a religion. So the molotov went through the mosque window because that's where all the brown people are, apparently.

This is to say nothing of situations like that in eastern Europe, Turkey, etc, where 'Muslim' is legally defined as a race, or in Southeast Asia where it's essentially the Malay swastika. If what I'm saying avoids Godwin's Law, it's only because of Poe's. You'd think that people in Europe would be uncomfortable with the idea of attributing terrorism to Muslims -without- criticising their beliefs as opposed to their ethnicity/immigration status. As if it were their biological nature as 'outsiders' that caused them to shoot up a cartoon studio, while the fact that their faith explicitly prohibits iconography and prescribes death for blasphemers were irrelevant.

You'd think that people in Europe would be uncomfortable with that kind of dialogue. Until you consider that it's Europe, where calling oneself a 'local' in -contrast- to third-generation residents is a way of life... where the last 2000 years have been dominated by an ideology not significantly different from Islam... where far too many people think openly of the Holocaust as a 'failure', not a 'mistake'... One wonders how long it's going to be until practising the actual religion isn't enough to count as 'Muslim' if you have the required 3/4 German parents.

About the only places in the world where 'Islamophobia', in terms of actual Islam, is an actual issue are the ones under Sharia, engaged in constant war between sects. I'm not so sure there -shouldn't- be Islamophobia, but I'm quite sure there isn't. It's not Islamophobia; it's Muslimophobia.

I'd accept this sentence if you were talking about the rise of parties like the FN in France or the PEGIDA movement in Germany.

But define the 'far too many people think openly of the Holocaust as a 'failure' bit. Because, speaking as a member of an European country, most of us (the vast majority, in fact) have always been taught that it was both a mistake and a vile crime. Granted, there are a couple of differences between Western Europe and Eastern Europe in regards to this matter, but you paint a very dark picture of us.

As for the local vs. third generation residents in the context of Muslimophobia, while that might be a bit true in, say, France, it's not the case in, for example, Portugal, as I and others here have said it a few posts back. Besides, the free movement of people within the EU is still a fairly recent paradigm, so not all people can deal with this, and so resort to xenophobic attacks.

edited 1st Mar '15 7:08:28 PM by Quag15

So my best friend's mother, who's a faithful follower of the most important right-wing party (and a casual racist, homophobe, andcall around local gal) told my mother (not me), that I was crazy to campaign against Je Suis Charlie. That such things are screened, and I could get blacklisted.

I thought that ideological battle was one I could not sit out because it was a matter of democratic principles and common sense. Looks like I should have given in to the emotional blackmail and let people bleat "JE SUIS CHARLIE" around me without questioning it.

I thought I was fleeing North Africa for countries where Thought Crime wasn't a thing any more, where people could debate candidly.

I am very disappointed.

I'll remember that, at least, here, I have a right... to remain silent.

Yeah, I also disliked the emotional circlejerk that was the reaction to the Charlie case.

Try to stay strong, if possible. And, hopefully, let's see if the economy starts to improve, so that the far-righters don't get into power.

Thank you. I have to.

No, there are limits to "Free Speech" in Europe — if you say some things you can be arrested for saying them. Mind you, Immigration was one of these taboo subjects, but it wasn't illegal.

By 'far too many people' I don't mean 'a vast majority', or even 'too close to approaching a majority'. I mean something more like 'a statistically visible minority'.

As someone who faces open discrimination on a regular basis, I feel that one of the more important litmus tests for such things is the extent to which people do or don't openly -react- to open discrimination. There are times when people have spontaneously stood up openly proclaimed that my mere presence is disruptive. I don't think this is representative of the views of the overall population. I DO think it's at least -indicative-.

I know that when someone actually SAYS something like that, unprovoked, to a nearby crowd, and the crowd is not offended enough at the speaker to BE disruptive... that's a bad sign.

I know that when the crowd is more perturbed by the disruption, than by the disruptor, then that person has gotten -exactly- what they wanted out of raising their voice. Any attempt to defend myself is 'causing further problems', and I am not worth causing them. The goal of having my presence be a 'potential problem', and little more, has been achieved. For such a goal to even be -able- to be achieved... that's a really, really bad sign.

'Statistically visible' is different than 'behaviourally visible'. If you think I'm being unfair to Europe, then consider the equivalent scenario with Westboro Church in America. Westboro Church is a very visible minority. They are not a statistically significant minority. They're not going to be earning any seats in Parliament, at least. If they had even 1/10th of 1 percent of America's population in their congregation, there would be several thousand of them. That would be considered unthinkable. If they had several thousand members, they would have been rounded up as a criminal organisation. People show up at their rallies just to fight them.

I DO consider this better. I hardly consider America to be the welcoming place it's made out to be, but I consider Westboro's beliefs to be no more extremist than those of many active European political parties. The fact that they are considered so much -more- of a fringe group in their own country than Ataka or the BNP are considered in theirs... Yes, that DOES reflect much, much better on America's cultural climate.

Beliefs like that can only exist when the climate is already so cold as to be complacent in their midst instead of destroying them. When it comes to groups like that, the fact that there are more than a few dozen utterly-ostracised members reflects really, really badly on the overall culture. A culture that tolerates such behaviour, instead of returning fire for fire, has already failed to sufficiently oppose it. And such toleration can be twisted into support far too easily.

So no, I don't think it's unfair to paint Europe as returning to an old habit of considering it easier to target scapegoats than scapegoaters. I think it's happening.

As for the free-movement thing, that's what I'm saying. I don't think 'Islamophobia' exists as such nearly anywhere in the world. It's code-language for various 'True Scotsman' issues of race and 'local, genuine' culture. Most of these issues are unrelated to those in other parts of the world, and few of them have much of anything to do with Islam.

Regarding seeing "Muslims" instead of "Islam", I think it makes sense to see things that way, as religion is not just an ideology, it's a cultural aspect as well. Europe is a very Christian place, so a different religion is "foreign", and so are its practitioners.

That said, there are plenty of people that believe there is something inherently wrong with Islam as well (though this comes more because they also think Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Syria are interchangeable names).

I do agree that the rise of the popularity of right-wing parties is very troublesome, though (and I'm glad we don't have something like that in my country). It's definitely a problem connected with an inability to welcome immigrants (foreign cultures) properly, including other Europeans.