Needs Help: Israelis With Infrared Missiles

This is supposed to be a useful note, but it's essentially become an IDF fan page. The description doesn't really acknowledge any criticism of or controversy around the IDF's activities, and people have added tropes that glorify the Israeli army and the Mossad. Edits to the contrary seem to be systematically deleted.

The page needs to be way more objective and nuanced, bearing in mind that Useful Notes are supposed to "debunk media stereotypes" and "educate".

Any help with this would be awesome :)

edited 26th Jan '15 12:54:40 PM by D503

I'll open this, but not in the name of a false neutrality (we don't have NPOV here). Rather, it should be cleaned of obvious gushing and, in particular, any trope examples or potholes to tropes unless those are also Useful Notes.

I don't think that this should have a trope list. In fiction, the story itself gives a morality scheme. In reality, everybody is going to pick their own side. Which will invariably lead to arguments.

So is the general policy on Useful Notes that they not have a trope list? (I'm quite new to the site.)

At the very least, I feel like the "Crowning Moment" tropes should be cut. Actually, all the ones that imply a value judgement - badass, cool, elite, etc.

The description has some syntax errors and an overuse of parentheses, as well as the obvious subjectivity issues. The first paragraph of the description gushes a lot, for one thing.

edited 26th Jan '15 4:43:54 PM by D503

AFAIK, none of the other national military Useful Notes pages have tropes on them (confirmed with random sampling from the Forces with Firepower index page), so neither should this one.

Beyond that, haven't looked at the Israeli military page in ages and I'm about to go to bed, so no comment on the gushing issue.

Well, the general consensus seems to be that this page shouldn't have tropes. So unless anyone objects, I'll go ahead and get rid of them.

This is even more blatant than the last time someone went in and removed all the content between the "See Also" marker and the "IDF in Fiction" section based on a rule that does not exist. The Administrivia page dances around the issue in highly vague language, saying that we should not treat people, countries or organizations as characters in a narrative. There is no place, however, that specifically states "Useful Notes Pages Are Not Allowed To Have Tropes".

In fact, the Administrivia section specifically advises people to avoid using Subjective Tropes, the implication being that non-YMMV tropes are, in fact, fair game so long as they do not involve Political Soapboxing, Misplaced Nationalism, Subjective Tropes, Personal Appearance Tropes, Righting Great Wrongs, and Internet Counterattacks. In addition, trope listings are common across many, many Useful Notes pages - I myself have done a multitude of neutrality edits in The Korean War's trope listing. The Battle of Lepanto has a trope listing. Armos with Armor, the very first entry in Forces with Firepower, has a trope listing.

Here's where I recognize that I am getting on to shaky ground. My intent with the following statements is not to attack D503, but to question the motives behind D503 taking issue with an article about the IDF.

The edit history of this page could stand to receive examination before deciding whether to allow or revert the deletion of 86 lines of content. D503's edits prior to moderator intervention (reference System edit history from 4:26pm, Jan. 25) were highly inflammatory and blatantly political, which suggests that they are not a neutral party in this matter.

For that matter, their avatar (the Palestinian Flag) is an even stronger indication that they probably shouldn't be editing a page about the IDF any more than someone with a Russian Tricolor should be editing the Useful Notes on Ukraine.

Frankly, I agree that this page is filled with soapboxing. I did my best to reduce it where I knew enough about the subject to provide accurate information, but I am not a historian specialized in the Arab-Israeli Conflict, so there's only so much I can do. The article needs a few good, knowledgeable, neutral editors, not a biased machete.

edited 29th Jan '15 8:58:07 PM by Ferrard

NONE of the other Forces with Firepower pages apply tropes to the respective militaries. Why should the Israeli military page be any different?

Armos with Armor Finns with Fearsome Forests The Glory That Was Rome Kiplings Finest Katanas of the Rising Sun Nepali With Nasty Knives The Sound of Martial Music The Other Chinese Army Slovaks with Sappers Turks with Troops Warriors of Desert Winds

That argument does not hold water.

I suppose I should double-check something before posting it, but showing your ass on the internet is SOP.

More seriously, that some do and some don't is a sign that there's something that's a lot more problematic than just the Israeli military page that needs addressing, though doing it in a separate thread [edit](probably best in Wiki Talk, since TRS is about specific tropes and not entire types of wiki pages)[/edit] instead of redirecting this one would probably be better.

edited 30th Jan '15 4:07:17 AM by MisterNoh

As post #7 correctly states, in fact there is no rule on the wiki saying that useful notes pages cannot have trope lists. When I look at a page like this page on the IDF, I see three things. 1) A trope list, which is interesting and fun. 2) A list of fictional works that have featured the IDF, which I guess is moderately useful. 3) A short history of the IDF, which is like Wikipedia, only worse, being less reliable.

Number 3 would seem to me like the part that has the least utility on this website but #1 is the one people want to delete.

edited 1st Feb '15 5:58:06 AM by gallium

We don't have all rules and extrapolations written down, folks. That argument won't carry. And it has caused arguments, so Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment does definitively apply here.

So should all the tropes that do exist on Forces with Firepower pages be removed, then?

edited 1st Feb '15 6:55:12 AM by TheUnsquished

It carries OK with me. There is, in fact, no rule against having a list of tropes on that page. I would suggest that if the people who own and operate TV Tropes do not wish to have trope lists on Useful Notes pages, they should write down a sentence to that effect on the Useful Notes page. And since TV Tropes is not a democracy the discussion would end.

There is, of course, the other aspect to this discussion, namely, that the list of tropes was the best thing about that page and is the best thing about every other similar page. Our Useful Notes pages are nothing more than a less reliable, less fact-checked version of Wikipedia. The trope lists, however, are interesting and fun. Seems quite weird that we would want to delete the trope lists. This wiki is about tropes, not aping Wikipedia.

Help me understand - how are we supposed to edit this wiki according to rules that exist, but are not written? I hope you'll recognize that this presents a bit of a problem to editing consistency.

The rule that applies without being recorded anywhere is that "Useful Notes" pages do not have trope listings - this stretches far beyond just the Force With Firepower sub-index.

I agree with post #10 that this highlights a wider issue around tropes on Useful Note pages, but I also feel that this kind of controversy could be avoided if the guidelines on this were clearly stated.

In reply to Ferrard's first post, I would say, with respect, that I'm sorry if you object to my avatar, but I challenge you to find one example of pro-Palestinian soapboxing on the current version of the page. Previous edits seem irrelevant here, as they were cancelled in their entirety.

[edit] With regard to my "motives", I believe I made them clear when I started this thread. Useful Notes aren't an encyclopedia, but they are supposed to challenge stereotypes and inform prospective writers. One-sided gushing doesn't do that. As the page stands, the description should be improved, and much of the information previously included in the trope list could be integrated into it.

edited 3rd Feb '15 8:37:50 PM by D503

I suppose adding a Just for Fun page to Useful Notes pages wouldn't be considered a good idea then? Any tropes anyone thought might apply to the subject of the Useful Note could be added there, so that the main page could be kept clear?

Clock is set.

Clock is up with no progress; closing.