Light Feminine And Dark Feminine: Possibly Sexist?

I've been debating with another troper over whether or not to include Starfire and Raven from Teen Titans under Light Feminine and Dark Feminine. In my mind, it's an obvious match since the two girls are presented as the antithesis of each other. The person I'm debating with, however, feels they don't count since Raven doesn't "play with desire" per the trope description. Sooo...Raven has to be a cocktease in order to qualify?

More to the point, the trope description is problematic in that it assumes the two women are meant to be presented as potential love interests, when that is not and should not always the case. Are we implying that femininity only matters when it's being used to attract a mate?

...Because Jeb Bush is all in my house with disease.

The argument is moot because they already have examples on the page.

The other troper didn't delete it, but we've been debating it. What I'm wondering is, should the description be altered to be less centered on love? (read: defining women in relation to men)

...Because Jeb Bush is all in my house with disease.

This discussion is better suited for the Trope Repair Shop and/or the forums.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

I don't think the page is broken. Playing with desire doesn't seem like it means that she has to be a cocktease. She might have lots of sex.

Frankly, a lot of Always Female tropes are kind of sexist. The point of TV Tropes is to list them, not fix them.

While true in a general sense, that's not a reason to stop discussion.

I think the two do not apply. Raven and Starfire aren't feminine opposites, they're magical opposites. Starfire has inborn magical powers and an optimistic viewpoint. Raven has studied spells and a cynical outlook. Their powers also reflect a Light And Dark dichotomy, but the opposition isn't feminine.

edited 27th Dec '14 11:43:42 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That was addressed mostly to this comment:

The purpose of this site is to list tropes, not correct them. We shouldn't alter the description because it has sexist Unfortunate Implications; that's work creators' problem, not ours.

Edit: sorry, it wasn't clear that was all you were addressing.

We should correct such tropes when the Unfortunate Implications are the result of our version of the trope, instead of how it is used by creators.

edited 27th Dec '14 11:51:17 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Calling Light Feminine and Dark Feminine sexist makes it sound like it's being confused with Madonna-Whore Complex. The MWC is sexist. This is matter-of-fact they are feminine in different ways.

Light Feminine and Dark Feminine doesn't read as sexist to me. If anything, it makes the point in the descriptions that:

The only part that might be considered "sexist" would be this:

And that's only a generalization and if you think desire = bad which isn't the case.

Also going to point out that this is a contrast trope, not a morality one; it doesn't have make inherent judgment calls on the characters.

The MWC is definitely Creator's faults, not ours.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Minor side nitpick:

Actually, only Starfire's flight is inborn. The starbolts and super-strength came from Citadel experimentation. Some of Raven's powers are inborn due to being half-demon, though she studies sorcery as well.

Anywho, the way I've been reading into this trope is having two females in a cast who are both feminine (neither are tomboys) but are opposites in a light and dark manner. *If* the characters are intended to provide sex appeal, then they would express it in the described manner, but I don't think the trope should hinge on that.

...Because Jeb Bush is all in my house with disease.

You are wrong. Reasonably wrong, because you cite comic history, but that's not the cartoon version.

Wikipedia: \\// Her race, the Tamaranians, are an emotional and feelingly alien race who see feelings and emotions as the supernatural life-force that drives their very livelihood. Their feelings and emotions greatly strengthen and energize their natural abilities of faster-than-light flight (which does not produce a contrail), superhuman durability, endurance, strength, agility, reflexes, as well as Starfire's bright green-colored energy blasts called starbolts.

The issue isn't fanservice, the issue is how they build romantic relationships. Light Feminine Dark Feminine is Always Female. If you made Raven and Starfire both men, would you still be arguing their inclusion on this trope?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Generally the dark feminine will be dressed more provocative and there will usually be love interests involved but there can be more to them then that. The dark might enjoy doing whatever she wants (devilish) without the approval of others (aloof). The light might have a need to help others (angelic) even if she is overly idealistic about it (naive). They might be a loving Magical Girl vs a lonely Dark Magical Girl.

And those do not apply to the Teen Titans version of Raven and Starfire.

• both are provacativly dressed, neither use sexual wiles
• Starfire is monogamous, Raven has no boyfriends.
• Starfire enjoys indulgence whatever she wants, and is the naive helpful one.
• Raven is aloof because she needs to keep her powers in check.

They are not defined as feminine counterparts.

edited 2nd Jan '15 10:55:28 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.