Suicide Squad Movie

It's been established that there were multiple cuts of the movie, and the popular elements from both were merged into the theatrical version. The Extended Cut improves a couple of things but it feels like a movie where the characters ARE the plot, so when they take out so many character bits the movie feels incomplete. When the movie is based on the characters like that, each character needs to have a strong emotional. Deadshot is the most obvious, with Harley whatever her faults she has a sense of loyalty. Boomerang's return is something of a weak point, especially since they made a joke of him bolting immediately when the detonator. Leto's performance as Joker was strong but the music video editing made it a bunch of snippets instead of him just inhabiting the universe.

The framing story works well enough, the Enchantress becoming the Big Bad was a clever move as the movie was able to introduce her as a member of the squad rather than as the villain. There was a handful of editing choices that felt off. A couple of the revelations are problematic as they are well known to the audience but not to other characters. One was revealing how Enchantress escaped their custody for a second time, it didn't really add to the situation. Another was revealing that Flagg was involved with June, it explains the mooks targeting Flagg but wasn't as big a revelation as implied.

Incidentally, the Suicide Squad trivia page says that early intentions was some stronger connections to Justice League, where Enchantress was apparently actually creating a Boom Tube and the "Eyes of the Adversary" were originally parademons. While a few more hints to Justice League and the New Gods specifically might have been cool, the movie really needed to stand on its own. Imagine how much bigger of a mess it would be if they tried to introduce and explain New Gods stuff. I did like Enchantress saying that the world is going to be changing with an increase of metahumans.

Wait, why would Smith be better as Bronze Tiger?

I suppose they're saying it makes more canonical sense for Bronze Tiger to be a Hitman with a Heart than Deadshot, But I'm actually okay with the changes they made to Deadshot for this, and Will Smith is super-good in the role.

I wish some of the other members were worse, though. Diablo, Katana, Harley and Croc to some degree, the 'worst of the worst' doesn't seem all that bad. They should have plunged them into far greater levels of evil via their intros, then really worked through the movie on earning a sense of redemption and sympathy for them (for everyone except Captain Boomerang). Make the mission more grueling, have it feel like something you wouldn't want to send good, honest people to do.

Maybe if Enchantress needs people to turn into the Eyes/Parademon, to sacrifice their humanity as part of the ritual she was using to create her Boom Tube, then have the explicit orders of the team be to hunt her down and kill her. Then when they unexpectedly save Dr Moon and sundry hostages, they look like heroes by comparison.

Or something. Just spitballing, now.

edited 30th Dec '16 10:13:48 AM by Unsung

The whole premise of the movie was "Bad vs Evil," ultimately with the message that even the most amoral people aren't interested in the destruction of Earth. The fact the movie came out so early in the DCEU is part of what makes it interesting, as in the comics the squad is often used to either fight against the established heroes or do what the established heroes aren't willing to do. When even the heroes aren't that established it means the squad was the only option to stop this threat. If there is a sequel it will be after Justice League and they have more of an option to go true Villain Protagonist. Right now Waller and Bruce seem to be on good terms but who knows how that will change.

It all follows logically, sure, but where's the fun in a movie about bad guys who don't get to be all that bad? Yes, it does make up for it in other ways (I like this movie, despite my various nitpicks about it), but you already have the excuse, so you might as well make use of it.

The very premise of the Suicide Squad means they are bad guys not able to be all that bad. They are a government controlled black ops team, not a Legion of Doom. Especially when Flagg is a member of the squad, they aren't allowed to go that far off mission. Multiple times in the movie they were happy to see Flagg get in trouble, but rescue him out of their own safety than because of straight nobility. Bad people who can do some good. In the comics Deadshot is sometimes depicted under the direct employ of Waller, making him more of a government contractor than an out and out freelance assassin.

The idea of Suicide Squad works best when they actually act as an actual black-ops agency, doing the government wetwork regular black-ops can't do because they're basic humans. The "Assault on Arkham" film displays that a lot better. In that their mission is explicitly something illegal (breaking in a prison to kill the Riddler because he has some classified information) that requires a lot more varied skillset and expertise that regular humans can't do.

The film suffers from just giving them a fairly traditional superhero plot of "stop the ancient evil before it destroys the world", and Waller's concept of assembling them as a deterrent against "the next Superman" doesn't make any sense because no one in that team (except El Diablo) is anywhere near that power level. Even against Enchantress and her brother they only last as long as they did because Enchantress gets cocky and decides to fistfight them rather than just do what she's been doing the whole movie (and kill them with her mind powers).

The only character whose Redemption Quest really feels strong is El Diablo's because we get to see and feel the weight of his criminal past rather than just be told about it like with everyone else. The movie would have benefited from more ruthlesness on the part of Deadshot, Harley and Croc. Boomerang is fine dickishness-wise, he just needed more screentime.

edited 30th Dec '16 3:07:36 PM by Gaon

I'm familiar, but in the comics, part of the enjoyment factor for me is that some of the Squad are in fact irredeemable bastards, and the writing doesn't shy away from depicting them as such. I don't have a problem with some of the Squad wanting to atone, or even a few of them being genuinely decent people who've been thrust into terrible situations past and present. But not showing the full range of good, bad, and ugly is, I think, a missed opportunity.

Pretty much how I feel about it.

edited 30th Dec '16 3:10:01 PM by Unsung

"the entire fiasco was Waller's fault, as one of her attack dogs (Enchantress) got off the leash. That should cause the end of the Suicide Squad idea"

to be fair, nobod know about enchantress which is why Waller goes to Batman in the end.

"Then she brings the squad in just for the purposes of rescuing herself? Even worse. That's a terrible use of the Squad - all they did was fight mooks that were killable by gunfire, blunt-force-trauma, more or less anything that kills a regular person."

is actually a pretty good used of the Squad since it test them to see if they can follow order, compare that to assult on arkham....

"Boomerang's return is something of a weak point, especially since they made a joke of him bolting immediately when the detonator"

they are some moment when you can see him bonding, as saying deadshot did a good job when not shooting Harley.

"The "Assault on Arkham" film displays that a lot better. In that their mission is explicitly something illegal (breaking in a prison to kill the Riddler because he has some classified information) that requires a lot more varied skillset and expertise that regular humans can't do."

on the other hand, that film fail big time it making Waller a credible threat, as the Squad dosent take long to go off rails

Assault on Arkham isn't a particularly good film either, but it does get closer to being a functioning movie which is something Suicide Squad never even gets within the same block of being. Waller loses control of the Squad in that as well, but it's not like in this she's any better: as pointed out, things only go haywire because of her stupid decision to use Enchantress as a member of the Squad and put Rick Flagg, the guy who's in love with her and liable to let her escape (which is exactly what he does), in charge of protecting her.

She loses control of the Squad in both films, the only difference is in Suicide Squad divine intervention helps her by the form of the Squad having a change of heart and saving her ass from utter annihilation. That's the only reason she doesn't crash and burn, the Squad spontaneously grows a consciousness at the beginning of the third act.

A "pretty good" use of the Squad would be something like sending them to assassinate a foreign dictator who happens to be producing some kind of superpowered synthetic drug (that all his mooks are juiced on).

edited 30th Dec '16 4:16:45 PM by Gaon

Yes, I am base enough to assume that you simply meant he was a better pick because he's black.

"but it does get closer to being a functioning movie which is something Suicide Squad never even gets within the same block of being."

No really, hell the use of squad to murder ONE guy is idiot plot in itself, I hate that Waller A LOT.

"things only go haywire because of her stupid decision to use Enchantress as a member of the Squad and put Rick Flagg, the guy who's in love with her and liable to let her escape (which is exactly what he does), in charge of protecting her."

to be fair, enchantress look like a good idea, she have good power and can by pass almost everything and Rick been in love ensure he dosent do anything out of Waller book, is having her brother soul what seen thing out of chart, but the edition dosent really hightlight this which is a huge flaw of the movie.

"That's the only reason she doesn't crash and burn, the Squad spontaneously grows a consciousness at the beginning of the third act."

Well that and utter destruction would fuck everything over but you are kinda right in that.

"A "pretty good" use of the Squad would be something like sending them to assassinate a foreign dictator who happens to be producing some kind of superpowered synthetic drug (that all his mooks are juiced on). "

so a superhero version of the expendables? sure why not.

Thinking back on it The Expendables, say what you want about it, it's the reason Suicide Squad doesn't really amaze me. We already saw the "badass team of unmentionable, expendable soldiers who turn out to be not so bad launched on a suicide mission," except here they went against a supernatural threat that none of them were remotely briefed on, or prepared to fight again - except Diablo and Croc maybe. I kind of forgot what Croc did in the final battle.

The plot is stupid. That's not what I'm saying. The point is the movie itself is more functional, it develops its cast a lot better and the Squad gets a lot more to do, as well as having a more coherent plot and a more coherent mission for the Squad (breaking in a prison).

Using the Squad to murder one guy isn't an issue, if the guy is heavily guarded and dangerous, it's more than justified. The problem is (spoilers for Assault) she sends the Squad to kill the only guy who can deactivate their bomb collars and she could really have just bribed a warden to kill him. What the movie needed was the Riddler not knowing how to do that and a throwaway line of her commenting the guards at Arkham are too incorruptible.

No, Enchantress is a pretty terrible idea from day one. She's extremely powerful, yes, but she also has the power to single-handedly destroy the entire human civilization. It's like employing a walking, talking nuke who could blow up on you at any second with no reliable method of keeping her in check (she has her brother, but it's a filmsy method, as the film itself shows how relatively easy it is to subvert it). Waller should keep her locked up to use as a proverbial equivalent of a nuclear option, only when everything else and absolutely everything else has failed or when the threat is too great (like literal Satan crawls out of the pits of Hell to destroy humanity).

Putting Rick Flagg to guard her doesn't really work to Waller's favor because Flagg's job is keeping the Squad in a tight leash and most importantly, executing them if they get out of line. We're repeatedly shown Flagg doesn't have the heart to just kill Enchantress and in fact, he lets her go early in the film. It's about the same as putting a cocaine addict to guard over a stash of cocaine, doesn't really work.

Waller's hope is that Flagg's love will keep him loyal to her and keep Enchantress from destroying everything but both assumptions are proven incorrect over the course of the movie, so she misjudged the situation very badly.

The Expendables, in the first film, aren't far off from what the Suicide Squad's meant to be. They go in the vein of The Dirty Dozen: A ragtag bunch of unsavory characters sent to do the government's dirty job. The Expendables even includes the concept of the government literally finding them expendable (thus the name) and Sylvester Stallone's character seeking redemption from his life of crime.

Croc swam around in the waters beneath the final battle. That's it

edited 30th Dec '16 4:48:55 PM by Gaon

Croc goes underwater and used a bomb to take out Enchantress brother but it was el diablo who push him into that spot.

Well, it goes both ways. When Enchantress takes over Julie while she's sleeping and disappears for a bit, he can't bring himself to shoot her. But when she drops a bomb at his feet, he immediately calls up Waller, knowing that Waller will hit the kill switch. But in the end, Waller manipulating them into falling in love caused more problems than it solved. Unless Flagg would have just refused to work with Waller entirely if she hadn't put him on that leash.

" the movie itself is more functional, it develops its cast a lot better and the Squad gets a lot more to do, as well as having a more coherent plot and a more coherent mission for the Squad (breaking in a prison)."

it kinda does because Waller have less presence in it but it goes into stupid really fast, actually that movie have the same problem in the oposite direction: their objective dosent really need the Squad, but while that movie try very little, the other goes to high.

" She's extremely powerful, yes, but she also has the power to single-handedly destroy the entire human civilization."

Yes and no, she is powerfull but NO that powerfull, she used her brother to get power and live, otherwise Waller would just stright out kill her after she get up, is Waller brutality what get her in trouble which is fairly know trait in her, granted the movie have a little in present that way.

I think the objective in the film in broad terms (breaking into a inescapable prison) could reasonably fall within the Squad's purview. The movie has a few scenes which justify the Squad's activation like Frost sneaking in by lowering her body temperature to pretend to be dead (which only someone with her skillset would be able to do) or King Shark via swimming underwater, which again, is his thing.

The fact she needed her brother doesn't change the argument. If the only thing standing between Enchantress (a magical teleporting hellspawn) and the complete annihilation of planet earth is a silver briefcase, it's way too big of a risk.

Waller's flaw tends to be she's excessively brutal and ruthless, which works in the short-term but in the long-term ends running headfirst into Machiavelli Was Wrong. In this movie her flaw is that she's a moron. Every assumption she makes proves to be incorrect: "I can control Enchantress" (no you can't), "Flagg will keep the Squad and her in a tight leash" (no he doesn't, he lets her escape and later lets the Squad go free), "The Squad will obey me" (Deadshot disobeys a direct order), "The Squad would never help me if not for the bombs" (they have a Hidden Heart of Gold so they do help you).

The movie itself, on some level, acknowledges this by having the movie end with her grovelling to Batman to please save her. She's a helpless idiot by the film's end because she just really fucks everything up.

edited 30th Dec '16 5:19:10 PM by Gaon

"I think the objective in the film in broad terms (breaking into a inescapable prison) could reasonably fall within the Squad's purview"

...Kinda, but if just to kill one men them is just idiotic, but the be fair is bound to happen: part of the fun is thing going of rail so they can be crazy in bound parameter

"If the only thing standing between Enchantress (a magical teleporting hellspawn) and the complete annihilation of planet earth is a silver briefcase, it's way too big of a risk."

To be fair, that work from most part, without her brother she will be dead right in the spot since Waller have her heart, and even them she need time and Waller mind to actually engage in world ending threat, is just a bigger scale as squad who are barely contain by somes bombs

"I can control Enchantress" (no you can't)," that is more "the enchantress is more cleaver that she thought" granted we are arguing semantic and this can fall into what you said

"he lets her escape and later lets the Squad go free" yeah he let her escape, no arguing that but he let the Squad go free because a that point everything was going to hell

""The Squad will obey me" and, "The Squad would never help me if not for the bombs"

Deadshot disobey her because he hate her for being outright brutal(remenber she shot the entire team in that bulding on the back after she was rescue) and that last one is actually true: they dont know what happen to Waller and decide to take enchantress out, in fact they seen surprise to find her alive

"on some level, acknowledges this by having the movie end with her grovelling to Batman to please save her"

no really, she differ with Bruce, saying he is working with friendship(or a least trying after is fuck up last film) while she use "presure", she is only save because the Squad become something beyond her personal gunmans, problem is the movie dosent really work that way.

No, it isn't, as long as the lone man warrants said approach. Technically speaking Hitler is just one man, but a black-ops team send to kill him would naturally be a very big mission.

It works for about thirteen seconds, then the Enchantress breaks out and dooms the world. Enchantress doesn't complete a single mission before breaking out, stealing her brother and heart, and wreaking havoc. If the Enchantress was able to break free and start a process which would quickly reduce Planet Earth to a fiery crater that easily, it's a stupid risk to take.

You're agreeing with me, here. The problem isn't that characters do things, it's that Waller is unable to foresee even the most basic of things (like Deadshot disobeying her).

No, she's pretty clearly begging him to help her. The conversation is entirely one-sided: Waller tells Bruce she's risking herself deeply just talking to him, then looks at Bruce and flat-out tells him if he doesn't help her head is going to roll (direct quote: "If they get those answers, my head will be on a pike", Bruce: "Consider yourself under my protection"), only then she reluctantly hands him the files. The conversation then ends with Bruce ordering Waller around, telling her to shut the Suicide Squad down, and from Waller's exasperated sigh afterwards it's clear she's in no position to argue back and must obey him.

"Technically speaking Hitler is just one man, but a black-ops team send to kill him would naturally be a very big mission."

Which is the problem with Arkham assult: someone like riddler dosent need a hit squad, even one who is so unstable(after all Harley almost derail thing to shoot the joker which give him what he need to escape and Boomerand commit ONE mistake and batman is there in their asses) as you said, they need a propiate objective: something dangerous, that allow them to pay colateral damage but not too much, Enchantress is way to off and Riddler is just to little.

"It works for about thirteen seconds, then the Enchantress breaks out and dooms the world."

Kinda, it only work because a outside thing Waller didnt know(her brother) and even them she almost die right there without it and she only got so close to wreck the work becasuse she capture Waller, not saying Waller was reckless just that a) is fit her chararter to overstimated her assets and b) Enchantresss was more trick she let her know.

"e. The problem isn't that characters do things, it's that Waller is unable to foresee even the most basic of things (like Deadshot disobeying her)."

Which happen again because she piss them off a lot, which again it tie with her main flaw: she have a bad tendency of kicking the member of their team since they can do anything to her, hell even boomerang the most self serving member of the team cheer Deadshot for sparing Harley.

Again, no saying Waller isnt dumb but is with the parameter of her establish personality: she kick her underlings and expect them to obey and them get surprise when it dosent happen

Also, when she sigh at him, she warn to "Stop working at nights" which mean she know he is batman, but before that she said to him they have diference, Bruce want to used friendship while she work with "pressure"(read: kick the son of bitch)

This kind of naked stupidity doesn't really fit her established character. Again, Waller's ruthlesness sabotages her, that's the core point of her character, but she's also The Spymaster The Chessmaster Manipulative Bastard.

Waller's supposed to be very vicious but also highly, highly intelligent and machiavellian, the kind of person you expect to be dealing scheming superpowerful international powerplays in a universe where several people can blow off city squares with a thought. The film establishes Waller is vicious, but not intelligent. You can't really say she displays any real intelligence when all of her suppositions prove to be inaccurate and only dumb luck saves her.

You're remembering the scene wrong, actually. She says Bruce believes in friendship while she believes in leverage, which isn't her threatening or making any sort of powerplay against Bruce, it's just her philosophizing on their different worldviews. The whole leverage vs friendship thing only comes up because she can't conceive why on Earth Bruce is helping her, given Waller herself agrees he has very little reason to do so. She's admitting she has nothing to offer Bruce and nothing to threaten him with, she's at his mercy.

Waller also says "You should stop working at nights, you're looking tired" in a way that is more of an advice than any sort of threat. If it is a threat it's a very empty one given it doesn't affect Bruce at all and he just barks back a command at her (to shut down the Squad), to which her reaction is exasperated sigh and backing off. There is no way to slice this scene other than Waller grovelling at Bruce's feet.

In her own terms she has exactly zero leverage against Bruce.

"You can't really say she displays any real intelligence when all of her suppositions prove to be inaccurate and only dumb luck saves her."

Thing so far it was dumb luck that doomed her with Enchantress brother(which let be real is the point here: he is just a plot device so she can be free of Waller thumb because there is not other way for her) or because she have trouble not kicking people(like again, the fact the Squad come to rescue her them she shot the people near to her which is something even Floyed back out and them showing how little fuck she give about the Squad) and them expecting to obey, and the last part have nothing to do with her but Flagg and the Squad bonding(well, kinda with edited mess this movie is)

Also, you are misunderstand me(or Im explaing poorly) the last scene didnt admit she fuck up and is more her saying that soon people will know about the enchantress(because so far, people dosent know) and the explain the clash of view between her and Bruce, I do agree the movie focus a little bit to much on her vicious side since she have good hability to cut thing up(she killed those people with her in the bulding and after Deadshot miss she just order to blow the helicopter) but when it come to work with team?....yeah, she fail on that.

The problem with Assault on Arkham was that Amanda Waller was using the Squad to handle her own dirty work rather than an external enemy, making her with pretty much no redeeming qualities. The movie Waller does some amoral things, but she's definitely a Well-Intentioned Extremist rather than a corrupt government employee. Her shooting her employees because of security clearance was a weird moment, but she still largely acts with an eye towards the big picture. She didn't assign the squad to clean up her mess, she called them in to retrieve her from a hot spot. The actual resolution of the plot came from the people involved acting outside of orders and taking their own initiative. And in the end while she didn't give them amnesty (which would have been far more immoral than retaining these violent criminals), she still made a few accommodations in appreciation for their work.

" Her shooting her employees because of security clearance was a weird moment, but she still largely acts with an eye towards the big picture"

No really, is just weird taking charge of loose ends(so to speak) which it fit him with ver being ruthless to a bad degree